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The annual Christmas tree lighting in Portland's Pioneer Courthouse Square will likely never be quite the same after what happened this year. Mohamed Osman Mohamud, a Somali-born, 19 year-old student from Oregon State University attempted to detonate what he believed was a vehicle bomb amidst the hundreds of spectators.
Monday he'll be in federal court facing charges of attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction.
Mohamud had been followed for over a year by FBI agents. During that time, according to court documents, he admitted his devotion to violent jihad and made plans to attack people "in their own element with their families celebrating the holidays." Agents say the crowd at Pioneer Courthouse Square was never in real danger this weekend — the bomb was a fake. He did not know that. According to Dwight Holton, the interim U.S. Attorney for Oregon, Mohamud is:
Someone who, over and over again, was given the opportunity, and frankly discouraged by the undercover officers, who repeatedly presented the consequences of what he wanted to do, and yet he insisted this was exactly what he wanted to do, and pressed forward.
The Somali community is reacting with strong condemation of any violence. In a press release today they said:
We call on all Somali-American community leaders to take the Somali youth issue very seriously. This and other recent incidents across the country should be a wake-up call for all of us to pay greater attention to our young people. We are asking Somali-American leaders as well as the federal, state, and municipal governments to work together to save our at-risk youth.
Meanwhile in Corvallis the Muslim community, including the Imam at the mosque Mohamud attended, are reacting with shock. (Later in the weekend there was a fire at this mosque. Arson is suspected.)
Were you at the tree-lighting on Friday? What's your reaction to this event?
GUESTS:
- April Baer: reporter, OPB News
- Chris Lehman: Salem correspondent for the Northwest News Network and Capitol Currents blogger
- Omar Mohamed: president of the Oregon State University Muslim Student Association
- Kayse Jama: founder of the Center for Intercultural Organizing
- Tom Hastings: director of Peace and Nonviolence Studies at Portland State University
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Thank God (not allah) that no children have been maimed or killed by this wortheless piece of crap islamic terrorist. He wasnt set up by the FBI. I wouldnt doubt that the fire in the mosque was set by muslims >. no proof to the contrary.
WAKE UP PEOPLE >>> U DONT SEE ANY OTHER RELIGION DOING THIS TERRORISM >. I THINK IT IS TIME TO CALL A SPADE A SPADE!!!
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The headlines should read:
FBI THWART THEIR OWN CAR BOMB
I can't be the only skeptic who thinks this is a staged terror stunt. The FBI does not have the right to exploit misguided people and call it a failed attempt to kill innocent Americans. I am certain this fellow did not have the wherewithal to construct a bomb on his own.
The only groups that seem to be actually building bombs and conducting terrorist operations are our own government agencies. Thank goodness they are using "inert" bombs. At what point do they cross the line?
I am not fearful of a real terrorist attack by actual terrorist. I am fearful that not enough people can see through this puerile attempt to incite fear and induce compliance. The outrage should not be at the patsy, but at our own government for putting on such shows. What I am fearful of is that there will be no one to stand up when they cross the line an actually let someone set off a live bomb. -
thx1138 - here is a Salon article with almost that exact headline.
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I guess it should be THWARTS not THWART.
Anyhow more power to Greenwald and Salon! I'll be interested to know how the FBI explains this is not entrappment?
I'll be even more interested in what rights are taken away, or what new inspection procedures us genereal public have to endure?
For some reason Portlland Oregon does not have an intrusive xray machine in the airport. I'll bet we get one now with litle protest. How about random searches of cargo vans or back packs?
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I'm sure entrapment will be argued, but the Fed's have a lot of experience setting up stings... which is one of the reasons I think this was allowed to continue for so long... to obtain airtight evidence and to ensure a crime was clearly committed.
I agree that it may seem "cheap", but there's a second (perhaps longer term) way to look at this... if your average would-be terrorist can't be sure of the people around her, can't be sure that this isn't another sting, then she may be less likely to proceed. It will have little to no effect on the hardcore cadres.
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FBI couldnt induce me to want to kill and maim thousands especially children >. i hope this potential killer is removed from society forever
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High Protein Low Fat Foods -
Hi TOL:
I wonder why the comment button doesn't work over on the Bagby Hot Springs topic. I tried a number of times over the weekend but clicking it just renews the page and does not open the comment window.
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When you press the link under the help tab to change the passwords, etc. one get this message:
404
Not Found
The requested URL /accounts/password/reset/ was not found on this server.Would you guys fix this link please?
Whilst you're at it. There is no podcast for the show below I can find. I'd like to listen to that show. Can you post something please.
A Mighty Wind in Union CountyAIR DATE: Friday, November 12th 2010
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Why did the FBI let this operation go so long? Didn't they have enough evidence to charge the kid and stop him long before letting him try to explode a fake bomb? Were they still building a thier case by letting the investigation continue or were they architechting a bust that would get the most news coverage and support from the public for anti-terrorism activites?
David in Portland
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David,
Part of the very difficult part of tracking subversive groups is the cellular nature of their organizations. If the individual only knows a couple of contacts, then he can't give away the whole organization.
The FBI was very obviously using MOM as bait, or even as an intelligence asset in order to learn more about the organization that he originally contacted. Whether or not the FBI was able to learn anything won't be known until wikileaks gets ahold of the info.
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Interesting point, but certainly the FBI could have arrested him at some point prior to when he dialed the cel phone to set off the fake bomb, for instance when he began to drive the vehicle to the location. To me it seems that leaving the arrest until the last minute served only to make the arrest more pressworthy. One could call doing so irresponsible.
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Good point. Let's explore it.
If the FBI had kept it secret, or nailed the guy earlier, what would they have gained/lost?
Let's assume: 1. They had full control over the situation and the safety of the civilians in the area. 2. They already had all the proof they needed for a solid conviction. 3. They gained some level of useful intel from this op.
If they kept it secret, they prevent public outrage/fear, but lose public awareness, both of possible future threats, and of their achievements.
If they make it public (as they have), they produce a measure of public outrage/fear, maybe lose their new lead, and possibly get criticized. But they also get a LOT of good PR. They have "succeeded." Even with the fear that was produced, we now have proof that they're doing SOMETHING. This will even help them defend their budget to congress.
Is it grandstanding? Absolutely. But I can understand why.
After the Cold War, the CIA lost a ton of its budget, and thus, lost it's human intelligence assets world wide. Then we get nailed by terrorists in '01 and we the people ask "why didn't our people know?" We didn't know because the CIA couldn't defend their budget. The FBI may have "created" the moment by letting it get so far, but they're also watching out for their, and maybe, just maybe our, best interests.
I can't say I appreciate the whole concept. But politically, it makes sense. Especially considering all the National budget issues and necessary cuts that we're going to have to enact in order to balance the budget.
Thoughts?
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I agree with your analysis. I also agree that the FBI does benifit from this grandstanding. My point was that it this was grandstanding and was perhaps irresponsible.
I understand that any organization like the FBI is political in nature, and is prone to make such decisions. I also believe the FBI does do good work. However, I think it is a shame the decision was made to turn the investigation into a PR opprotunity.
This kid apparently was misguided and made some stupid decisions. I hope the FBI did not play a substantial role in misguiding him to ensure future funding.
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there was no danger to the public >. might as well get a very good case against this islamic terrorist >. it might deter other islamic terrorists from acts of mass murder in burkenstock clad portland
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The bomb was a fake: The Fuzz trapped this innocent child and it is all the conservative's fault!-)
The bomb was real & went off: The Fuzz failed to trap this bastard and it is all the conservative's fault!-)
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poor innoscent child wanted to kill and maim as many children as possible >. better he is behind bars and no children of of liberal Portland be maimed for life or die in poineer square.
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One word:
Entrapment.
Another word or two: Let's stop funding these insanely out of control agencies like the FBI
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If only these 'out of control agencies' could have stopped the Woodburn bombers. Then a family would still have their father and husband, and a man would still have all his limbs.
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Wow. So, we should get rid of police as well? Court systems? Are you supporting an ideological system of anarchy? What's your alternative for dealing with folks like this? They clearly exist don't they?
I hate the TSA and like organizations and believe strongly our last two presidents are degrading our civil liberties at dangerous rates; but throwing out all civil justice systems is a stupidly simplistic viewpoint.
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Glenn Greenwald points out in his article Emily directed me to above:
Meanwhile, in Oregon, the mosque sometimes attended by Mohamud was victimized today by arson. So the FBI did not stop any actual Terrorist plots, but they may have helped inspire one (my emphasis).
The FBI controls the narative right now. That's why we have trials.
Another quote from the article:
But it may also just as easily be the case that the FBI -- as they've done many times in the past -- found some very young, impressionable, disaffected, hapless, aimless, inept loner; created a plot it then persuaded/manipulated/entrapped him to join, essentially turning him into a Terrorist; and then patted itself on the back once it arrested him for having thwarted a "Terrorist plot" which, from start to finish, was entirely the FBI's own concoction. Having stopped a plot which it itself manufactured, the FBI then publicly touts -- and an uncritical media amplifies -- its "success" to the world, thus proving both that domestic Terrorism from Muslims is a serious threat and the Government's vast surveillance powers -- current and future new ones -- are necessary."
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the cost of this investigation is a small fraction of the cost this islamic terrorist would have caused >>. can u imagine hundreds of dead children and hundreds more maimed for life .. i think its a great investment to prevent such islamic terrorists from doing their evil deeds.
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i would not be surprised if the muslims set fire to their own administrative offices in the mosque .. wouldnt put it past them . until then libs dont assume it was a terrorist act against the mosque
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I agree thx1138. My question is:
What other interventions might the FBI have initiated when they began to suspect the kid might be heading for trouble?
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I hope that you talk with a lawyer or maybe FBI person on TOL about what the law is, and the requirements of proof in court.
I suspect that you have to prove and have evidence of intention and probably more. So the FBI would have to follow the person closely and keep meticulous track of what the person did, as evidence for a trial. Now where the line between that and entrapment lies, I don't know.
If someone just commented on something, it would probably be hard to convict them. It's one thing to say something in anger or misguidedness, it's a whole other thing to take action on it, to show "intention".
I have wondered if the acronym agency, on becoming aware of someone like this, what if they just stepped in and told them they knew and gave them a very stern warning and told them about the consequences to their own person?
Anyhow, I am glad that they stopped him.
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Mohamud had ample opportunities to back out of this plot. He could have backed out at anytime during the plotting of this bombing. He wasn't entrapped. I believe he wanted to hurt as many Portlanders as possible last Friday.
Any time during this plot Mohamud could have gone to any law enforcement and turned himself and his co-conspirators. But he didn't.
If Mohamud had not connected with the undercover agents, he would have found another way to commit an act of terrorism. He admitted his devotion to violent jihad and his desire to hurt Americans.
I do not understand any sympathy for this man.
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i totally agree .. but do gooder libs always have misplaced sympathy
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Hi Can one read that fbi affidavate on line? thx
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If a representative of the Somali community joins the show, please ask them what they are doing to actively police their people/culture.
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What was/is your culture doing to stop people like the Turnidges (sp.) i.e. the Father/Son bombers?
H
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Seriously? Police their own? Did you even read that before you clicked submit?
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Yeah, I did read it before submitting... several times... Every culture, religion, etc. (my own included) has a responsibility to the rest of the world to ensure it's citizens find a way to coexist... some do better than others, some not, some are still figuring it out.
As to the Turnidges (sp?), they are on trial for murder in their culture, could they have been stopped in advance if the people around had stepped in? Absolutely... a clear miss.
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@rethomas - I think you're unrealistic here. Somalia hasn't had much of a functioning government for years. Genocide, wars, assassinations - the works. In such a state, they can't even take care of their own internal basic functions - let alone track down radicals like this.
The local Muslim community has already come out and condemned his actions - and it appears at first brush that he was a lone actor working on motives of his own making.
The only way you can blame an organization for responsibility is if the org/culture/religion has a systemic culture of promoting or ignoring such behavior. Beyond that, it's very unrelalistic to say that just because I belong to the local knitting club means that my club has a responsibility to prevent me from hurting animals or any other offensive activity.
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"Somalia hasn't had much of a functioning government for years. Genocide, wars, assassinations - the works." et al...
Acknowledged... WRT Somalia you are absolutely right of course... not so sure with cultural clusters within the US itself. Common culture (or religion, etc.) is a powerful force when harnessed and if the expectation isn't set we never get there.
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we have just imported the anarchy and savagery of somilia >>.when we will learn??
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There will obviously be a lot of reporting about this, and MOM will have his opportunity to launch an entrapment defense. It seems specious to debate about whether there is a "real" threat or not. Of course there is a real threat. THe issue of whether the FBI overachieved here will be decided by the courts, as it should be. However, I am thankful that the FBI was acting to protect the public.
The folks spotting entrapment here seem too sure for what the facts have told us. How about a cautious "well done" for the efforts of the FBI here. I would prefer that MOM be in the situation he is right now rather than trying to build a bomb on his own, or on the lamb after setting off a deadly explosion at the tree ceremony.
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if a bomb had exploded .. it would be the libs first to find blame with the FBI >>.
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You have to wonder if he would have lost interest as he discovered how difficult it would be to single handedly put together a plan and carry it out. He is only 19 years old, with a brain that is not prepared for complex decision making.
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Any halfway motivated, 19 year old, engineering student could fashion a fully functioning bomb on his own. I don't think he would have lost interest.
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19 yr olds hold positions of rank in the military. It's very possible for a 19 yr old to be a seargeant or higher in the Army. Enlistment age can be as young as 17 with parent permission. Their decision making skills are good enough to make life or death decisions that effect other peoples lives.
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I hear your argument, but unfortunately, a 19 year old is considered a fully functional and independent adult in our society. The can drive, vote, serve in military, and all other functions in our society. And I don't your evaluation of a 19 year old's brain development as 'inability to do complex decision making' would be supported by a psychologists board or if you said that to a group of students at any college campus.
It's true that our brains develop and mature well into our 50's, but it doesn't mean we are exonerated from the responsibility of our actions even if we don't fully understand them.
He stated clearly that he desired very much to kill as many people as possible even after the investigators told him his actions would likely kill women and children and would severly impact him the rest of his life. He desired to continue and he pressed the button himself with no coercion. That sounds like very adult decision making to me.
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@"Any half-way motivated 19 year old..." Maybe it's me but I don't believe the 19 year old in question's major was engineering. This particular 19 year old would not be making a WMD on his own. Had he succeeded in getting to Yemen he may have played a role oversea's in causing trouble for our military or our allies but that is far from the scenario that we are forced to contemplate. There are disaffected youth by the thousands in America trolling for trouble on the Internet. How many of them are recruited... erm... entrapped by Federal agents? I've lived near Portland for two years and did not know that there was/is a tree lighting ceremony in Pioneer Square.
H
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Let's grant the fact that your an omniscient neurologist. MOM is still one of the bad guys.
MOM was dabbling in completing a terrotist act. What does it matter whether he was capable of complex decision making, or only competent to voluntarily drive some drums full of explosive to a public place and dial a cell phone? The FBI isolated him and worked a case to get enough to arrest and charge him. The larger game is whether he gave them an avenue to the home boys in NW Pakistan.
Sometimes you have to clearly choose whose side you are on. In this case, the FBI and the justice system are definitely on the high side of the argument against MOM.
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I was in a building near the event and watching from the top floor. The report states there were 5-6 55 GALLON DRUMS with detonation cord and explosives. I'm no expert, but a similar bomb that went off in the world trade center parking garage nearly took the entire building down, and would likely have wiped out almost a whole city block along with the countless hurt and killed. It's chilling to know I might not have survived that night and the building I was in might have collapsed around me.
From what I read initially, it sounds as if Mohamed had plenty of time to back out, continued to pursue a goal of - in his own words - "Killing and hurting as many as possible". He walked up to the train station and activated the device while yelling "Allah Akbar". It sounds to me like he was very much desiring to do exactlly what he did.
While I'll wait to hear more at the case, I'd personally like to know if I could file a civil attempted murder case against him. I think everyone at that event could probably do the same. Here was someone who very clearly tried to kill me and only because of his ineptitude was not successful.
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"..Civil attempted murder case..."
That's an interesting idea, I too, would like to know about the law on that possibility.
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Are you going to name the FBI as co-conspirators, or accessories to attempted murder in your lawsuit? Clearly they had a role.
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hahaha >. go hire a lawyer and sue once he gets convicted >>i am also aghast at his attempt to muder thousands .. but i dont think i will sue >> i will just vote for candidates who dont coddle extremeist muslims
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It seems to me that a student at OSU has already made it into the top tiers of society, he has the intelligence to enroll, somehow the finances to pay the fees, and what a great opportunity to get an education and help himself, his family, and whoever else he wants to.
So why blow all that by doing something like this?
It does not make sense to me!
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I am not sure where you are going with this. Agreed, it does not make sense... that can't be all there is to that, can it? I mean... what about the blonde, blue eyed Taliban fighter they found hiding in a cave somewhere... he was even more ensconced in the bosom of America's 'Dominant Culture'. What, at 19 you never had a bad day... a bad week? The only difference between you and him is that when you were 19 there was no Internet to vent on. The only difference between others that are presently 19 years old and in the midst of a bad patch is that there wasn't an FBI operative manning the chatline and setting in motion... ... they played this kid like a Guarneri... they could have made him do anything... including Good. Instead they pushed him further to the Dark Side to further their own ends.
H
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he is an ISLAMIC TERRORIST >. THATS WHAT THEY DO .. GET UR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND
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Religious people of all faiths are the problem. They are the cause of hatred, violence, misinformation, and ignorance throughout the world. The rest of us are dragged along in the wake of their poor behavior, we are associated with them because of the country we live in and the politicians they elect. Muslims aren’t the problem, all religions are the problem.
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It's not religon, per sé that's the problem, it's people - who use religion or talking dogs or false standards like 'racial purity' to justify violence against others, that's the problem.
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I would alter your comment to suggest that Extreme religious views are the problem, Or more generally extreme views of any kind. When a persons opinion can be justification to kill another it will never end well.
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I disagree with your argument - not least of which is because it's a contradition. You say religions are the problem, but say muslims are not. Do you realise what makes a person a Muslim is their identification with a religion? Why did you assume it was his religion when his own congregation condemns his actions and he didn't appear to get support for his plan or ideas from them? Do you support the people that tried to burn down his Mosque because religions are to blame even though there is no proof to their involvement?
Secondly, you indicate that religions are the the cause of these problem. It's far too simplistic and wrong to say religion is the the source of this kind of brutal hatred in the world. How about the purely political and ideological killings of rebel groups in Central and South America? Or the purely monetary murders of drug cartels in Mexico? The atrocities of the Kamier Rouge and Pol Pot, or the wholesale rape and hacking off of limbs by African malitia groups? Somolian death squads? None of these groups are based on religious princples/backgrounds.
I agree with croyfp - it's extremeism of ANY ideology: be it political, ideological, religious, monetary, or otherwise that causes folks to feel the need to destroy those that don't believe in what they do. In fact, I can see a bit of this kind of hatred and anger in your response that desires to destroy something you don't feel is right in your eyes. A true desirer of the good seeks to take what is good, and correct what is bad via reasoned argument and dialog. An extremist says it must all be destroyed. So where do you find yourself in your statement?
People desire to hurt others when they themselves have been hurt and not found understanding or healing; so they try to hurt others so that others have to feel the hurt and helplessness they themselves feel. We won't make a dent in extremists like this until they are allowed to be heard or at least given models to help guide them through their anger.
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Religious beliefs are extremely vulnerable to manipulation by psychopathic or psychopathological leaders, since they are not grounded in empirical or rational foundations and are thereby immunized from refutation. Zionism and the havoc it has wreaked for 6 decades in the Middle East is a conspicuous example.
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@jackdresser - very true that religious beliefs are more vulnerable to coercion; but that's not to say other ideologies are not almost as succeptable as well. Political ideologies are probably almost as maluable as it's hard to emperically prove what is an absolute best/good for a society.
You're right in saying that its the psychopatic/psychopathological leaders of any movement that are the problem. Particularly charismatic leaders have throughout history been able to convince others to follow them despite what seem like glaring flaws in hindsight.
So you either target your efforts on them, or you conversely target those that are most vulnerable to their coercive arguments. Usually these are the poor, uneducated, abused, forgotten and discarded desperate elements of a society. Attack those problems and you'll likely take away the fuel for the psychopath's fire. I'd bet people that have food and basic needs met aren't as likely to feel that their only option in life is to blow themselves up to make a point.
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I hope we all take a moment to reflect on what today's conversation would be if the bomb had gone off and we were dealing with a huge explosion with thousands dead and possible a whole city block destroyed right in downtown.
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I was at the tree lighting with my baby and I am very disappointed that the FBI felt the need to park a fake bomb next to a public event. they could have arrested this guy without scaring our community. I will be at next years tree lighting. I will not live in fear.
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I agree that it was frightening to hear about afterwards and has a smack of showboating. But they went to great lengths to ensure 100% that nobody was ever in any danger. I think it was because they needed to prove he had the intent to follow through with his plot; which he chillingly did by going a few blocks away and triggering what he throught was a fully functioning bomb.
This was probably needed to prove how devoted he was to his plan. It appears he removed any doubt that he was going to back out...
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NOBODY WAS PUT IN FEAR . THE FBI DID ITS JOB AND GOT A SOLID CASE ON THIS POTENTIAL MUDERER>>>IF UR CHILD HAD BEEN KILLED OR MAIMED FOR LIFE . I THINK YOUR PITY FOR ISLAMIC TERRORISTS WOULD NOT EXIST .. BUT U WOULD STILL BE CRITICAL OF THE FBI
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According to the online article below, several members of the Somali community have reported that the suspect's father informed federal authorities two years ago of his radical orientation and provided them with the suspect's passport to prevent him from leaving the country. This is reported by a member of the Pacific Green Party who was participating in a small demonstration at Pioneer Courthouse Square with the Portland Peaceful Response Coalition.
http://agonist.org/mmeo/20101127/the_portland_bomber
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So doesn't that beg the question, why all the show? Was there some design to fan the fire of fear in the country?
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Yeah, I can imagine how that email sounded:
"Hello, I'm from Somalia and wish to contact you about an important development..."
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Sorry, I should have clarified that the parents live in Portland.
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For jcooks: Of course, the show fans the burning coals of Islamophobia supporting our imperial wars and Israel's relentless, continuing 62-year ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. To understand the longevity and virulence of this propaganda barrage, check out the documentary film, Reel Bad Arabs, that can be viewed (in low but watchable resolution) online.
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IM GLAD HE IS OFF THE STREETS AND WILL NEVER KILL OR MAIM ANY CHILDREN BY TERRORIST ACTS >> JOB WELL DONE BY LAW ENFORCEMENT
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What bothers me is that they are charging him with "attempting to use a Weapon of Mass Destruction." A WMD is an unconventional munition such as a Nuclear Biological or Chemical weapon. A conventional explosive should not count as a WMD. This is a semantics debate, but an important one. Words do have meaning.
One of the only things that make us "better" or "more moral" then the enemy is their willingness to use WMDs. It's the whole and potentially only reason we invaded Iraq.
Conventional explosives, no matter how improvised or targeted, are NOT WMDs. If conventional explosives are WMDs then we as Americans are very, very guilty of using WMDs both on enemy combatants and civilians on the battlefield.
If the charge stays worded the way it is, then they are making us just as guilty as him/them.
As far as entrapment goes, he was obviously bait. The FBI was trying to learn more about individual terrorists in order to collect more intel on the subversive groups, foreign and domestic. If they gained any information, they will of course keep that close to the chest.
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You're right in saying it's semantics, I also don't know what qualifies as a WMD.
All I DO know is the van had 5-6 55 gallon drums that were supposed to be filled with explosives. A similar bomb nearly leveled the world trade center - and in Oklahoma city nearly took out the fedral building and killing dozens.
If a bomb like that went off in crowded pioneer place, I would imagine massive casualties (in hundreds) and probably the collapse or destruction of at least a building or two.
That's starting to sound like "Mass Destruction" to me...
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I lived in Washington DC for eight years and worked a few blocks from the Capitol on September 11, and then endured the D.C. area sniper and having my office closed due to letters with potential anthrax. Living there, we were prepared with a “go-box” in our home and car. We were also issued gas masks at work. I don’t think we fully appreciated the low grade, constant stress that this caused until we moved to Portland and it melted away.
When I read about this incident in the press, I was alarmed at first but then immediately thankful for the FBI and their efforts to watch over Portland. They were on top of the situation from the beginning and did their job well. Thanks for keeping us safe out here in the Northwest!
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I have to agree with those who think this is a wag the dog scenario. I just don't believe it. It is too conveniently wrapped and packaged right around Christmas and just as everyone is starting to finally--finally!--object to all of our rights being taken in the name of "security." We all die. Giving up our right to freedom from intrusions by the government is not worth the tradeoff to avoid this one possible method of death. There is safety, and then there is oppression, and the US is beginning to cross that line.
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LETS LET THE BOMB GO OFF FIRST AND KILL THOUSANDS . OTHERWISE WE ARE CROSSING THE LINE ??? >>>>LIBLOGIC AT ITS BEST
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The U.S. invades Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and bombs civilians.
Muslims invade the U.S and bomb civilians.
The similarities are more pronounced than the differences.
There are radicals on both sides.
If anyone invades the U.S. , even a friend like Canada, to eliminate drug cartells, or whatever threat to their homeland, we Americans would be very upset. Where ever we lived, in the U.S. or Pago Pago, we would perhaps try to exact revenge on the Canadian interests there.
There are always going to be radicals. We need to conduct ourselves in a manner that will not provoke retribution. We need to let the Iraqies, the Afghans and the Pakistanies solve their own problems. We can support all sides with aid and a forum to resolv their differences.
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You forget, the bombings of those places have been going on FAR longer than when we were involved. The even go on today against their own countrymen's civilian targets - not purely military ones. Mosque bombings, market bombings, etc.
It's not as clearly cause and effect as you claim.
And 'having to conduct ourselves in a manner that will not provoke retribution' sounds very much like bending to the will of the school bully. Eventually someone needs to stand up to them or they'll be running the whole show...
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I AGREE >. PREEMPTIVE ATTACK AGAINST CANADA>>NOW
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It looks like all he had was the idea. It is kind of embarrassing when the FBI tricks a 19 year-old which makes world wide headlines in Portland. Now if this kid could have led them to some bigger operation then all this hoopla would be appropriate but come on arresting a 19 year old then admitting that they supplied everything but the intention is nothing to brag about. Mary S.
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IM GLAD HE IS BEHIND BARS AND HE WILL NEVER HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CARRY OUT HIS "INTENTIONS" OF KILLING AND INJURING AS MANY CHILDREN AS POSSIBLE
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Last February Gen Petraeus reported to Congress that we killed 709 Pakistani citizens with drone strikes in 2009, only 13 of whom were targeted combatants. They all had loved ones and tribal/community relationships, and this was reported in Pakistan's largest circulation newspaper. Some blowback somewhere was and remains inevitable.
The obvious way to prevent such attacks is to get our military terrorists out of other countries and stop killing their people. As MLK stated some half century ago, our country is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world.
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Amen to that Jack.
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Send a letter to Obama. And while you're at it - encourage him to finally shut down the detention centers that he keeps defending..
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OBOWMA SHOULD BOTH APOLOGIZE TO AND PARDON THIS POTENTIAL KILLER OF MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN . THAT WOULD MAKE US SAFE
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That kind of fertilizer is not "readily available" at your local hardware store as the guest stated. It is actually fairly hard to get and is kept track of and regulated because of the possibility of its use wrongly. And it is mixed down with other stuff whenever it is sold for use as fertilizer because it is considered "too hot" and would "burn" the plants if used in its more pure form.
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As I am listening to the program I understand, and appreciate, those with hesitant feelings toward how this case was handled (especially considering the aspect of youth). What I am not hearing clearly, however, is how we think a young individual would act if connected with actual dangerous individuals; such a connection is possible. If connected with someone committed to acts of terrorism is it really reasonable to believe that a young person would not have followed through? This was not warrantless big brother actions, but a facilitation of evidence gathering. Had the law enforcement individuals intervened earlier we would not know if the cell phone trigger would have been activated.
Finally, all of that being stated, the seemingly retaliatory act in Salem is a travesty demonstrating as much, if not more, ignorance than the planned bombing.
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So, from all this work, we now know there was one person in America willing to participate in a terrorism plot. Yes, assuming all is true, Mohamed is a criminal and we should be concerned about his potential. But, didn’t we know this already? Didn’t we know, that somewhere in America you could find someone willing to join an already organized terror group? This is hardly a big telling event. There are a lot of people in America, it would be more surprising if you couldn’t find someone. I guess the FBI did some market research for entrepreneurs wanting to start their own terror cells. Hopefully they didn’t snatch up the only available applicant.
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Why does your show leave out the question, "WHY did he want to blow up and hurt people?" In Glenn Greenwald's article in Salon magazine this young man is quoted as saying he wants Americans to feel the fear and pain that people in the Middle East have been feeling as a result of American action there. On your show he is being portrayed merely as someone who "wanted to hurt people".
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You make a good point but I suggest that a better way to let Americans know what other people think of US actions would be to talk, write, and video it and spam it around on U-tube, and blogs, etc. A lot of Americans feel Empathy and Compassion for people hurt by our government, but even those get turned off by bombers.
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Agree - I'm very interested in hearing what his ideological drive was. Was he just angry? At whom/for what? Was he mentally unstable? etc...
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This was also the motivation of Palestinian suicide bombers. If our press refuses to report the many Israeli killings to which these were retaliatory, no empathy or understanding occurs. For example, since Hamas discontinued suicide bombings in 2005, eight Israeli and 666 Palestinian children have been killed (see www.rememberthesechildren.org). Do Americans hear about these?
We all hear about Gilad Shalit, the ONE Israeli soldier captured and held by Hamas. But some 8,000 Palestinian political prisoners are held by Israel at any given time, including several hundred children, without due process, routinely tortured, and often held for years without trial (see www.addameer.info). Do Americans hear even one of their names?
This is the WHY! How would we react if the US was invaded and occupied, our properties were confiscated and bulldozed, we were driven into refugee camps, and those of us resisting were murdered by drones, hellicopter gunships, fighter aircraft, tanks rolling through our streets, and snipers shooting our children for throwing rocks?
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We are calling what the FBI did an "entrapment". However, he was the one who made the first step. If he got in touch with a real terrorist organization, do you think that they would coach him less than FBI did? If anything, they would encourage him even more. What it comes to, is that he did tried to detonate the bomb and kill hunderds of people.
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The two thoughts that this incident planted in my head:
1. Is this incident in the heart of the "Left Coast" going to give us pause in being as liberal and tolerant as we have traditionally been?
2. Regardess of entrapment, encouragement and support, what was it that told this YOUNG ADULT, that it was OK to potentially kill hundreds or thousands of innocents? Does the knowlege that he would have killed infants, which Islam counts as innocents, is against the teachings of his religion?
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i am still waiting to see imams worldwide take a stand and defend their religion as being peace loving and much like other major religions when it comes to being against what the taliban espouses. islam needs a a really good ad campaign to counter act what is being done by so called faithful followers.
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"Religious people of all faiths are the problem"..."Muslims aren't the problem" Uh, What?
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Total entrapment.
The FBI set this entire thing up. This kid is NO jihadist - he's some poor patsy that fed. goons picked a year ago & they've been leaning on him ever since.
Sadly, all the thoughtless dopes have bought the LIES. Expect a spike in hate crimes & security over the next several weeks.
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And apparently, then, he was even stupider to fall for this 'obvious' stunt.
As a college engineering grad, I have a hard time believing he was that completely dumb...
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To all you people who think that our law enforcement officers and FBI agents spend their days trying to cook up some fake plot that essentially makes light of all the people dying all over the world from terrorist attacks: I have to wonder what is wrong with you. I do not deny that governments cover things up. I do not deny that there are people who do underhanded things for their own gain. But there ARE people who take on the responsibility to PROTECT us because they know that there are evil, crazy people out there who do not value human life. I fully support those who put their lives on the line to protect the lifestyle that you and I have, and I deplore those in law enforcement who abuse their office and thus create people who believe that the state and federal law enforcement agents and detectives are all corrupt. I rest easy at night knowing that there are still many honorable men and women who are protecting the men,women, and children who go to Christmas tree lightings. What you need to understand is that these people who believe in Jihad are not normal people like you and me ... this kid would have figured out a way to get his hands on a bomb one way or another. The fact that our agents strung him along so skillfully and made absolutely sure that this did NOT happen, saved many lives. I think you would have a different perspective if your mother or wife or child HAD been killed because he HAD succeeded in bombing Pioneer Courthouse Square. You would wonder why the agencies hadn't been on him like white on rice. If there is no pleasing you, then you should have no voice.
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I'll second that.
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"this kid would have figured out a way to get his hands on a bomb one way or another."
Emphatically, no, he would not have. Them that can, do. He wasn't doing. He was led by the nose right up to the end. It is beyond shameful. The FBI has obviously not gauged correctly the degree of public susceptibility of the Pacific Northwest as they are getting considerable blowback on this.... shameful waste of taxpayer money. In NYC they might have had something. In trying to drag Portland into the fray they may have overreached the publics capacity for manipulation.
H
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@leisesturm - What? How on earth do you proport that you can somehow prove that he was not going to be able to get a bomb? What evidence do you have he was led by the nose all the way to the end? The evidence says the contrary at the moment (we'll get the full story in the trial) - but at the moment you must have secret information none of the rest of us have. He was told by the investigators the consequences of his actions and given every chance to back out - but did not. He pressed the detonation button himself with no gun pointed at his head. Unless new information comes out - I don't know how you make this claim other than your own 'gut feeling'.
Further, if this is such a 'shameful waste of government resources' and truely think your government cooks up this kind of tremendously elaborate lie to get funding - I sure hope you don't support Obamacare or any other program they are even more surely 'lying to you' about...
I for one still very much distrust the FBI's activities, but am not as much of a consipiracy theorist as you. And your notion that somhow the Pacific Nothwest is 'revolting' doesn't seem to be bearing a lot of truth. I for one would like to hear more - which is surely coming. I haven't heard of any mass protests and would be surprised if more than just your 'standard' 1-2 protests with 100 or so folks outside city hall happens.
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I think this is very inappropriate and irresponsible behavior from the FBI.
Encouraging bomb making is not what the FBI should be doing. I really doubt this young man would have been able to assemble a successful bomb by himself, and there would have been plenty of opportunity to catch him later if he did try to seek out bomb materials for himself.
Setting him up this way actually encourages copy cat followers. In reality by helping set up this bomb plot and all the publicity actually makes this more likely to happen. It did not need to be encouraged by the FBI. It is the FBI's actions that actually raised the threat level in Oregon.
We all know that age 18/19 is a very difficult time for youth. If they survive that age they often turn into productive members of society. They should not be set up to try to make bombs by the FBI.
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Inappropriate and irresponsible????? What are they SUPPOSED to be doing if not protecting innocent people?
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paxton - I seriously disagree. As with other posts, someone pointed out that it is a great discouraging tactic. If I were going to engage in this kind of activity, I would now know that it's highly likely I could be working with police instead of my intended confederates. It would make me double-think everything I did and make me move much much more slowly.
I would argue that the requirement I go slower is worth its weight in gold because the longer I think about such a henious act, the less likely I will be to carry it out. Others on this comment site suggested that he wasn't fully aware of his decisions - and making him take 2x the time to carry them out might have dissuaded him enough to give up.
And again, the FBI only provided what he asked for - and at no time did he have access to a functioning device. Even during the 'trial run' they did. In no way were they showing anyone how to make a device. I think they did a great job on that front.
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I'd be curious if there was any group you respect then.
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I am saddened by the "media psychology" being used portraying Mohamed Osman Mohamud, a Somali-born, 19 year-old student from Oregon State University with images of the glistening X-Mas tree lights over his face and the crowds at Pioneer Square looking up as if they are praying and use of “language” to create fear, bias and hatred.
I encourage Oregonians to ask "what was going on with him," rather than "what's wrong with him?" I advocate for supporting the family (mother, father, siblings, and extended family) who have stated "no comment" to media inquiries and remove barriers to speak publically, respond to questions and find answers to a difficult problem.
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What happened in Salem? Did you mean Corvallis?
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One caller referenced Chalmers Johnson. Check out these books for background on how and why the U.S. is experiencing the scourge of terrorism. It is too easy to over simplify complex problems with sound bites and single sentences.
Blowback - The Costs and Consequence of American Empire
The Sorrows of Empire - Militarism, Secrecy, and the end of the Republic
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A motive is needed to determine hate crime vs. terrorist act. We are too quick to apply the fear based terror conclusion. Many acts of terror include self destruction in the name of God. This act was at a safe distance.
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I wonder at the majority sentiment here: Would you feel the same outrage if the alleged bomber's, device had gone off?
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The Turnidges (sp?) device went off.... your point?
H
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Where is the outrage on thier arrest and trial by evil law enforcement... your point?
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@leisesturm
I feel like we've entered a wierd twilight zone in this country. If anyone is arrested for these kinds of activities, one side is sure to claim all kinds of setup/consipiracy. If someone does blow something up, the public cries 'oh how could we have let this happen?'
So exactly what should have been done liesesturm?
If you were the FBI at the beginning and had recieved a note from his father saying that his son Mohamed was harboring dangerous attitudes and saw a communique that he was contacting known extremist groups - how would you have handled it?Keep in mind what your public said about the underwear-bomber who's father also warned the FBI about, and whom they choose to ignore.
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@aloevera. What the FBI should have done upon receiving the tip from Mohamud's father was pick him up for questioning. Period. Anything more was/is entrapment. He had no target, no method, no means no anything except motive. If pure motive were grounds for the construction of elaborate undercover operations reminiscent of the old Mission Impossible series then there would be a LOT more of these stories breaking in the news. The usual way these things end is for law enforcement to go confront the kid and in the ensuing stand-off... ... ethnic parents, by all means read this as: Do not turn your misfit children in to PDX law enforcement. See to it yourselves. Likely they are messed up because of your single minded determination for success in America never mind what they might need from you in the way of love and guidance. I can say that because I am an adult child of U.S. immigrants who kept their noses to the grindstone for 40 years without ever once stopping to come up for air. But, I digress. As you can see though, when it comes to actually preventing horrors like Oklahoma City, 9/11, Wells Fargo, the Marine Base shooting... ... law enforcement is impotent. They have no power to predict and/or prevent mass destruction by determined individuals or groups. About the only comfort in that is that such occurrences are relatively rare. Another poster is correct in suggesting that we attempt to find out the "why" of terrorist motivation. I would go as far as to suggest that we already know the "why". That is an entire new topic.
H
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As you can see though, when it comes to actually preventing horrors like Oklahoma City, 9/11, Wells Fargo, the Marine Base shooting... ... law enforcement is impotent. They have no power to predict and/or prevent mass destruction by determined individuals or groups.
There hasn't been an act of mass terrorism like 9/11 in this country since 9/11. Your claim that we can't prevent acts like this is belied by the actual facts.
One technique we are obviously using is to "flood the zone" with fake terrorists, so that any real terrorist is more likely to run into one of our agents as opposed to another real terrorist.
I totally support this strategy and whatever else it takes to defeat the jihadist terrorists who want to kill so many of us.
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So, the purpose is to PREVENT or ELIMINATE terrorism.
If the purpose is to prevent terrorism then the logical action would be to talk someone OUT of planting a bomb.
Someone said the group this young man was in was all FBI plus him – is that accurate? Even if not, regarding implanted agents – I have long thought that it could be the one comment, the one encouragement that sent over the edge the _____ (fill in the blank enemy). I hope FBI out there infiltrating are talking potential threats down and expect that we would not hear about them. Good job.
If the purpose is to eliminate terrorism, then becoming aware of why people do it must be addressed. I agree with the speaker’s comment that that list of complaints about US actions would be 100% objectionable to us if the same were directed at us.
Living in Portland, I feel the same way I did after 9/11: that it is incredibly sad, do not give in to fear, do not act rashly, find out why and how it happened and do something about the root causes.
The effect of the FBI letting this grow to public action is to increase fear.
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If the purpose is to prevent terrorism then the logical action would be to talk someone OUT of planting a bomb.
Someone who needs to be "talked out" of committing an act of mass murder is a sociopath with, perhaps, a weak will. If you talk him out of it this time, maybe next time we won't be so lucky.
I prefer to see Mohamed Mohamud permanently disabled. Even if someone "talks him into" committing act of terrorism, he won't be able to do it from inside a jail cell.
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This is why we need to stop killing people in far-off places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Not only does it anger families that are torn apart by war today, but the middle-east has a decades-old history of U.S. manipulation, all of which cause more and more people to sympathize with groups like Al Qaeda . Mohamud's desire to commit a terrorist attack is one small byproduct of this.
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I am glad he is jail and will not kiil anyone. the arson in the mosque is not acceptable . especially if it was set by muslims in order to seek pity >. MOST OF UR LIB COMMENTS WOULD NOT BE THE SAME HAD THOUSANDS BEEN KILLED OR INJURED ESPECIALLY FAMILY MEMBERS OR FRIENDS >.YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS NEVER CEASES TO BOTH AMAZE AND SICKEN ME
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"U DONT SEE ANY OTHER RELIGION DOING THIS TERRORISM"?
Really? You haven't followed the criminal career of Zionist Israel committing massacres (62 to date), assassinations, property theft and destruction, sniper killings, denial of food and medical care to imprisoned people, torture and prisoner abuse, all in the name of Judaism? Just for massacres, see http://www.al-nakba-history.com/alnakbacontinuing/israelimassacres.html and for the murder of children see http://www.al-nakba-history.com/alnakbacontinuing/killingthechildren.html which summarizes data from the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem: www.rememberthesechildren.org.
And the reason we are seeing terrorist acts by Muslims is because the US and Israel are invading, occupying, terrorizing and murdering thousands upon thousands of Muslims who have the misfortune to live on land atop the world's largest oil supplies and land Israel wants to take away from them.
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This was such a shock when it came on the news the night it happened. Almost instantly--I suspect because of how it sounds--the news was picked up by news organizations around the world.
There's this debate on whether what the feds did was right or not. I think what's more important is the fact that because the guy actually meant to commit his crime, if he would have gotten in touch with the wrong people, I think he may have had the capability to sucessfully pull off what he thought he was doing.
Sure, maybe the feds were too elaborate and created too much unnecessary unease, but more importantly, maybe this fear is needed in such a place as the Northwest. It's such an obscure place, it would be a perfect place to catch unsuspecting people off guard.
Just the fact that someone had meant to do this means that someone else could actually pull it off. It's sad that we now need to be wary of our surroundings, especially in a place we know so well.
Also, in regard to the arsons, everyone who blames the entire Muslim population for crimes committed by manics like this should wake up and see that not all religious people mean harm. Fortunately, many know better than to interpret their holy texts as facts, a big difference from the days when people's lives were run entirely by religion. I see this as a progress toward reason, and perhaps a better future for humanity.
This is an atheist speaking. You can find me on Tumblr, at imaginenoheaven.tumblr.com.
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Excellent share! Thank you for this insightful article and I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future. Have add your site into my google reader. :-)