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An Episcopal church in Northeast Portland has many fewer members since about 100 people left to form a new Anglican parish late last month. The rector and the majority of his congregation at St. Matthew's Episcopal Church voted on March 21 to leave and rent space nearby as the newly formed St. Matthew's Anglican Church. They began holding Sunday services there on April 25.
The split at St. Matthew's follows a long line of divisions in the Episcopal church over the past few years. Many point to the election of the faith's first openly gay bishop in 2003 as the beginning of the conflict within the church, but others say that event was just one of many points of contention among progressive and conservative Episcopalians.
Long before the discussion of openly gay clergy members began, church members were at odds over the ordination of women. Women have been ordained as Episcopal priests since 1976 and the first female bishop was elected in 2006.
Are you a member of a church or other religious community? How did you make the decision to join that group? Have you ever left a community — spiritual or secular — because of irreconcilable differences? What was that like?
GUESTS:
- David Humphrey: Rector at St. Matthew's Anglican Church and former rector at St. Matthew's Episcopal Church
- Michael Hanley: Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Oregon
Tagged as: religion
Photo credit: J Heffner / Creative Commons
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I don't think such unnatural combinations and weird habits ever occurred to those flea bitten goat herders squating around their fire.
All their powers of imagination seemed to have been focused on the invention of a new religion, one that could enable them to cash in on peoples gulibility and live in more comfort with less sweat and fewer fleas.
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Thank you to Think Out Loud for devoting a program to this situation. I hope it might be viewed not so much as an issue of disagreement among church factions regarding gender and sexuality, but more about issues of inclusiveness within our society and culture at large. It is in this larger context that I believe the most important work of the Church takes place. How will the members of the new St. Matthew's Anglican Church relate to the world -- and marginalized people -- beyond their church walls?
Lee Garrett
Southwest Portland
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The issues have nothing to do (directly) with inclusiveness, gender, sexuality or, with relating to the world. It is a misunderstanding of the case for some to suppose that they did, at least as the case is viewed by the members of St. Matthew's Anglican Church. But, these truly are not the key issues. The members of St. Matthew's Anglican Church have made their decisions, individually and corporately, because of one primary reason: a difference with the Episcopal Church of the USA over the nature and authority of the Bible and with how the Bible is to be interpreted and applied in daily life. Interpreted, first, so that we may know what is the 'once for all delivered to the saints faith' (i.e., that we might know cognitively what God intends for us to mean when we identify ourselves with Jesus Christ, to say that we believe in Him and, in believing, have Life in His name; to call ourselves Christians and have it mean for us precisely what it meant for those believers in Antioch who first were called by that name) and applied, secondly, so that might have a compelling and meaningful answer for ourselves individually and corporately to the question, "How shall we then live?" This is, as I as a member of St. Matthew's Anglican Church understand it, the general point of divergence with the Episcopal Church USA and the one from which any and all other particular points of disagreement derive.
This needs saying, too. The inclusiveness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is always on God's terms, never on humanity's variations and adjustments. The invitation to rest is given to all who are weary and burdened. Not all who are weary and burdened accept that invitation, perhaps in part because they do not want to take the yoke and receive the learning that are also part of the promised package. The results of one's response to that invitation are quite different from each other, depending on which response we make. It is only when the invitation is accepted as extended, that rest is given. Were it otherwise, the invitation and the promise attached to it would be just a meaningless sham. If that point gets lost in the preaching, then it is no longer the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is being preached.
Respectfully submitted by,
Rolland Withrow
Clackamas
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Tolerance, inclusiveness, all those features of diversity presently celebrated in America eventually and inevitably lead to a complete loss of a national culture.
The role played by religious cults that toss out all the bits and pieces that become inconvient to this new inclusiveness is a perfect example of what happens to any institution that tries to be all things to all people, especially people that are almost totally unlike those who came first and made up the rules.
A culture or institution that eliminates all the prohibitions and taboos and opens itself to everything that comes along will shortly lose its identity and its moral or ethical compass. Because if tolerance alone becomes the only touchstone for a culture or institution, the result is a total loss of principle, practice and the originating purposes.
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The departure of the vast majority of St. Matthew's Episcopal Church members in which they were locked out of their building is an indication that there are Christians who are willing to stand for the Word of God and the Faith the church has always believed. This costly decision will be blessed by God as this new Anglican church grows and flourishes. It will also serve to point out the intolerance by the liberals in that diocese who will rail against this decision with all sorts of name calling and judgmentalism. This is indicative of their leaders who seem to be much more concerned for property than people, for re-writing the Bible than accepting the truth of the God's Word written and moral beliefs of the Apostolic Church.
The Rev. Dr. Roger Grist - Fort Worth, TX
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Lord, god, Ormazd, Jehovah...Baal, El, Jesus...by whatever name the religious wish to stick on this mythical creation, ordering one's life around a non existent entity is plainly silly. Then to engage in these heated and seeming serious arguments about bogus 'god ordained' rules is a shameful display of superstition for people living in the modern era. No wonder we are regressing as a nation. You people are in the majority.
Even taken on its own terms how can one view the photos beamed back from the Hubble telescope depicting the stupendous near infinity of the visible universe and SERIOUSLY believe that an Entity capable of this creation cares a whit where we tiny motes of star dust poke our wee-wees? Or in what manner we choose slaughter one another? The disproportions alone make make religious worship a laughable conceit. As if such an entity requires the worship of we brief, and tiny specks of organized carbon.
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Religions should stick to their guns, stick to their traditions, stick to their beliefs. Don't modify things to fit the changing, worldly, society. These changes make religions look foolish. If you start to say your abhorrence of homosexuality was wrong, then really you discredit the entire religion, because it all allegedly came from god. I don't think god, as religions generally describe him, changes his/her/its mind. These modifications overtime, to keep up appearances, really, are marketing---they allow religions to continue, and thrive. I like the bigotry of religion, because it allows for easier objections. The bigotry gives us quantifiable ways to object, that don't have enter into the difficult realm of fighting faith.
On the other hand, you are smart to get rid of the bigotry, it is a good short-term business decision. But, in the long run its value might peter out. There is a certain profit in hatred, in traditional morals, because they allow you to feel separate, to look down your noses at the rest of the wicked world. Without the false superiority of these moral strictures, you end-up treading in banality. If you are just like us, what is the point? You need the exclusiveness of your club to keep its membership.
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The departure of the vast majority of St. Matthew's Episcopal Church members in which they were locked out of their building is an indication that there are Christians who are willing to stand for the Word of God and the Faith the church has always believed. This costly decision will be blessed by God as this new Anglican church grows and flourishes. It will also serve to point out the intolerance by the liberals in that diocese who will rail against this decision with all sorts of name calling and judgmentalism. This is indicative of their leaders who seem to be much more concerned for property than people, for re-writing the Bible than accepting the truth of the God's Word written and moral beliefs of the Apostolic Church.
The Rev. Dr. Roger Grist - Fort Worth, TX
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I think it's a bit rich that a flock who no doubt has a bunch of divorced people in it are going to claim they're paying more attention to biblical authority than others.
It is just a case of hypocrisy. People getting righteous about sins that they don't commit while rationalizing away scriptual prohibitions of the sins they do commit.
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I will be recieved into the Episcopal Church late this spring -- to a church that is radically inclusive and specifically 'open to all".
The sign on the door brought me in 'The Episcopal Church Welcomes You' and the diverse group of people and their faith inspired me to stay.
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The American Constitution is a relatively recent document as far as these things are concerned. It has been ammended I don't know how many times and their is still contention and division among those it is intended to unify. The Holy Bible, as a document of authority, has essentially been unrevised in over 1500 years! Can you say 'outdated', boys and girls? The church I attend was split virtually in two over the hire of an openly gay minister. A much bigger church than the one in question. That schism and its aftermath have not been the focus of any OPB program that I am aware of. What is it that makes the Episcopal Church in general or St. Matthew's Parish in particular so important to Portland... to Oregon, that an entire Think Out Loud segement is devoted to their problems?
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"...The Holy Bible, as a document of authority, has essentially been unrevised in over 1500 years!..."
Did you know that around 250 CE, a fellow named something like Irenaeus gathered up all of the gospels that he disagreed with and burned them, keeping only the big 4? But the Thomas gospel survived and contradicts the 4.
So, the Bible was corrupted from the beginning! And that corruption is what remained un-revised until the Thomas gospel was found.
And never mind all of the different translations over the years by kings, popes, and the rest of that ruling ilk to benefit themselves and to the detriment of The People.
Sheesh!
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You have a point, Tom, when we consider that for centuries the Bible as we now know it was passed down as verbal tradition from father to son for something like 40 generations before anyone had the means of writing it down (whether it was a lack of a written language or the lack of a medium to do so). This was then passed down from father to son for something like 40 more generations, with transcription errors and errors in translation (from Aramaic to Greek to Hebrew to Latin to English, etc.) alike being introduced in the process. So is it any wonder that no two people (let alone groups) can agree precisely what it means?
Finally, it seems to me that anyone who tries to justify their war by calling it a "Holy War" is missing the point?
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(From a spoken word piece heard some time ago on KLCC's folk music show Friends & Neighbours.)
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Thanks, OPB! You managed to present a topic that makes the Spring Fund Drive interesting. This was like two cheerleaders arguing about their makeup. If one of them had just dropped the F-bomb, (as I suspect they wanted to) it would have been at least a little bit entertaining.
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This was like listening to a group of 3, 4, and 5 year olds playing make-believe and telling each other that they can't be in the "good group" because they don't agree with the make-believe scenario.
Obviously, neither one has studied the history of religion, the evolution of the idea of "God", who translated and who purposely mis-translated and/or left out gospels that contradict the "big four", etc.
It was like a group taking Walt Disneys' Mickey Mouse cartoons seriously; what did Mickey say, and why don't you agree with me about what he meant?
Too weird for me!
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The whole god creator concept as described in the various Good Books is howling nonsense to anyone with an IQ higher than his/her shoe size. The idea that a gaggle of flea bitten goat herders sat around a fire pit 5000 years ago and figured out ultimate reality is crazy. Those supersitious old yahoos thought the sun moved across the sky on the back of a giant tortoise!! Most religious ninnies in the US, anyway, still think Darwin was a madman. and they aren't sure about that tortoise, either.
I would wager that the people arguing about the division of this church no more believe in the reality of their god-man than I do. If they did believe in the existence of the murderous, vindictive, insanely cruel god descibed in their bible they would go mad with fear.
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I am one who decided along with 100 or so to leave church for St. Mathews Anglican church. Like many I am bothered by those who think this just an anti homosexual issue rather the grate one of The authority of scripture, for example as expressed in the Nicene Creed and the Thirty Nine Article of Religion
For example of the divide happened during the conversation on OPB’s Think Out Loud. One can hear the difference between FR. Humphrey expressing final authority and interpretation of scripture, allowing scripture to interpret itself to Bishop’s relativistic view of scripture. in interpretation through conversation and consensus within the human community. It not lost on me in Rt. Rev. Michael J. Hanley us in the word such as yours, as to discredit a believe of scripture is own authority but a matter of personal interpretation. This issue of Homosexuality is not the main issue but a symptom of a grater problem.
I seen this shift form scripture being out final authority for over 20 years I am born, baptized and confirmed in the Episcopal Church and raised in an Episcopal family. Like many teens, I left the church feeling it was too boring but missed the important issue. I came to the knowledge of saving grace in Christ in 1981 and decide to attend a Cavalry Chapel rather than return to the Episcopal church. Again I saw the shift in 1985, while attached to the 7Th fleet with an Episcopal Chaplin. Finally, in 2008 I left the Baptist church and spent a few months on a “Walkabout” visiting various Episcopal parishes around where I live.
Still, I did not see the changes in the Episcopal Church as a reason to leave, feeling ST Mathews should be the light of the Gospel for the Episcopal Church, but unlike Rt. Rev. Dr. Johncy Itty, there was no guarantee the present bishop or Diocese of Oregon will leave St Mathews alone. My vote to leave was more of a vote of lack of confidence.
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If you meed a group join the Eagles or Moose or VFW. At least they dance, drink a bit and have fun. They sure as heck don't argue religion or very often anything else. As someone significant once wrote about religion: "...only important if true".
The views of the universe brought us by the Hubble telescope makes the idea of a god creator who had to take a day off to rest after creating the universe profoundly silly. That he ate dinner and had a wrestling match with one of those flea bitten goat herders is material for SNL.
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I take exception to Bishop Hanley's remarks concerning the status of this new Anglican province and whether it genuinely is "Anglican." He was correct to say that Anglican Church of North America is currently not recognized as a standing province, but what he failed to add was that this is a process, and as in all processes involving the Anglican Communion, a very slow process. Add the facts that a number of leading bishops have recognized this newly forming province and further that a recent synod in the Church of England (the founding Church of Anglicanism) overwhelming voted in favor of recognizing Anglican Church of North America, and Bishop Hanley's comments stand in need of significant qualification. Perhaps this is why the Bishop prefers fuzziness over "certainty."
In response to Tom Ford's comments, I am quite familiar with all the topics you referenced. Philosophy of religion in an Enlightenment -post-Enlightenment context is a central part of my dissertation research. Before making such comments, I would encourage you to read some of the academic literature on the topic, perhaps you would less rash in your assertions.
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I know that the homosexuals think the world revolves around them, it's all about them and that all should bow down to their agenda...
A sign of the depraved state of the Episcopal diocese of Oregon is that they chose the arch-heretic like Marcus Borg to be the canon theologian to the diocesan cathedral. This is a guy that denies pretty much all Christian doctrine.
Fortunately, the diocese is disappearing and will be gone in a generation or two. Good riddance.
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Comments are now closed.
I'm sorry...I don't really have any use for organized religion... especially when such organized religions preach homophobia and hatred for those of us in the LGBTQI (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queer, Intersexed) community.
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(Explanation provided for those who are unfamiliar with the abbreviation.)