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Fighting for Primetime

AIR DATE: Friday, May 30th 2008

POSTED BY: SCOTT SILVER

Download the mp3 for this show.

Photo credit: DerekA / Flickr / Creative Commons

On Saturday, May 31st, CBS will air a live "Xtreme Combat" event, the first Mixed Martial Arts event ever aired on broadcast television. Mixed Martial Arts (sometimes known as "ultimate fighting") has been steadily gaining in popularity since the 1990's, but has gained many detractors as well.Oregon is host to major MMA events, and has produced several world class MMA fighters (including GOP candidate for a seat in the Oregon legislature Matt Lindland), but the sport has gained popularity on the local level, too.

The Northwest is spotted with small MMA gyms and teams, and according to Oregon's Athletic Commission Director, amateur MMA events happen in towns throughout the northwest on a weekly basis.Do you compete in Mixed Martial Arts events? What attracted you to the sport? How has the sport affected your life?Or are you a fan of the sport? Do you attend MMA events to see disciplined athletes compete? Or to see blood on the mat? Perhaps a little of both?

Friend or foe, are you ready to see MMA on prime-time broadcast television?

Tagged as: mma · sports

Photo credit: DerekA / Flickr / Creative Commons

I hope that you talk about what MMA was like in Oregon before regulation under Senate Bill 492 (2007) and what it's like now. How many states out there don't regulate amateur or pro MMA? I've seen people cleaning up blood from MMA bouts who weren't wearing gloves nor were competitors tested for blood borne diseases, and promoters would keep fights going when they should have been stopped, or didn't have medical personnel or transport on scene. Though I'd like to see this brutal "sport" banned in Oregon, I'm glad that Oregon has at least stepped in and brought some minimal sanity to these events.

WillBDR — Wed May 28th 7:45p.m.

I train brazillian juijitsu at Straight Blast Gym in Portland. It makes up most of the grappling/ground work that you see in MMA. Several members of our school compete regular in ameture and professional mixed martial arts events.

To people that thing the sport is brutal, i think that is mostly a matter of perception. MMA bouts look bloody because even superficial head wounds bleed alot and the fighters are wearing small gloves. But when you compare it to boxing where a fighter often goes through 12 rounds of constant blows to the head the damage in MMA is much less. Fighters just can't pound on each other constantly because they have kicks, takedowns, and the grappling element to deal with. They can choose to submit their opponent in other ways with a choke or an armlock.

To the people that say MMA not a sport does that mean that Olympic events like Greco Roman or freestyle wrestling, boxing, and Tae Kwon Do are not sports either and should be banned? All MMA does is take techniques from all those above and combines them into an effective package. I will agree that some of its image and marketing is directed towards a certain demographic and sometimes that annoys me, but then you have people like Randy Couture who are humble athletes and gracious, polite people.

Anton Emery — Thu May 29th 5:10p.m.

Well said. Excellent points, and from someone who knows something about the sport, as opposed to those who won't even read about it because they are 'morally opposed' to it...'morally opposed' to something that they know nothing about, and choose to pontificate about anyway.

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 5:40p.m.

I find MMA fascinating. It has been such an incredible journey, and a sport that I hope to train for as long as I can. It definitely can seem more "brutal" from an outside perspective than it really is. Sure there are injuries, and accidents happen, but generally it is controlled chaos. Fighters are very skilled at what they do, whether it's BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, or other martial art forms.

As a woman training, I definitely feel with the skills that I have that I can protect myself, too. It's way better than any self defense you would learn from one of those classes. When new guys come in to the gym, some tend to get an attitude about having to fight a girl. But I feel proud being able to man-handle them and overpower them. Even though I'm only 4'11", BJJ and MMA have given me excellent tools. MMA allows you to work in an alive environment. Unlike single martial arts or self defense classes, you are using your skills on a day to day basis and are able to see if they work or not against your opponent. I am confident that I would be able to defend myself on the street if I ever needed to.

I train at Straight Blast Gym in Portland, and it is the best atmosphere. It is a community. Everyone is supportive and encouraging and working to help each other's skills improve. I hear stories of other women feeling excluded from gyms, or the guys won't let them roll. Again, some may have more easily bruised egos, but everyone has always been so gracious and encouraging of me and the other women at SBG to train and improve their skills. My husband and I train together, and I can't think of anything else I would rather do.

KatieE — Thu May 29th 5:23p.m.

Mixed martial arts is very close to being at the forefront of mainstream American sports. While combat sports have nearly always been close to the top of the popularity list worldwide, they have been shunned away from in America over the last century or so. Modern boxing and wrestling still survive in America, but as shells of their former selves. Some countries excel in combat sports, and are proud to have them amongst their national traditions. In Japan, it is common to see 30,000+ fans in attendance for an MMA event. They also have much more brutal allowances for techniques, which include stomping a downed opponent, kicking and kneeing a downed opponent, and all manner of elbow strikes. Would this lead us the believe Japan is a much more barbaric nation, or do they simply have a more warrior-oriented social psychology due to their rich feudal history? Muay Thai is the national sport of Thailand, and it is common that children start fighting professionally at the age of 10. Judo, Tae Kwon Do, and Wrestling are olympic sports, although they have been so destroyed by rule changes that one might not recognize them by those names. Oscar De La Hoya recently started his own MMA promotion, himself already a billionaire from a long and decorated boxing career.

As someone who teaches, trains, and lives martial arts, I must greatly argue in favor of sanctioned, full-rules MMA bouts in Oregon and across America.
The athletes who compete are well aware of what they are getting into, and with better regulation and acceptance, we can put a stop to events where promoters pull fans out of the crowd to fight, lack medical personnel, or don't drug or blood test.

Combat sports are the ultimate in human competition. No tools or implements to get in the way of the victor. Few stringent rules allow competitors to find the best way to win through all manners of striking and grappling, and there is nothing to hide. No one can stand on the mat and blame their loss on the failure of teammates, poor field conditions, or bad calls. The level of honor and accountability is second to none. If you lose, it's your fault. You can't talk a big game and disrespect your opponent, expecting to miss him on the field, because there is only him and yourself.

This would lead many to believe that we are engaging in an ancient bloodsport or ritual of male dominance. While it does reverberate with the ancient calling of fighting before modern warfare, it is still a sanctioned competition with plenty of monitors. Many a fan has shouted "I could do better!". As a student of psychology, sociology, and philosophy one could address many reasons why one would choose to fight. The sad truth is that many young Americans see it as the next "American Idol" or chance to become famous through a natural ability. When they step into the gym and spar for the first time, they soon realize they are sadly mistaken.

The failure comes with money hungry promoters who sell cheap alcohol and promise blood and partially nude women to stimulate the crowd of apathetic young males, few who actually possess the dedication, passion and stones to compete themselves. Our sport is marketed as a bloodfest because that is what sells tickets. Few outside the world of martial arts can understand the personal sacrifices and deep dedication it takes to make yourself the best martial artist you can be, especially if one was not bred into the sport or introduced at a young age. This is what leads the marketing machine to attack our baser instincts for violence and excitement. This would be much to the delight of Edward Bernays and his uncle Sigmund Freud.

Recently on I was listening to "Talk of the Nation" on your station and they featured the author of a book entitled "Can't Remember What I Forgot". Sue Halpern was talking about memory loss and degeneretive brain conditions, and what activities promote a healthy brain condition. She said she was privy to one medical study that found that ballroom dancers were the least likely group of people to suffer from dementia or a degenerative brain condition. The argument for dancing was rooted in the argument that exercise is the most efficient way to create new neurons in the brain. In addition to that, ballroom dancing tapped into multiple thinking centers of the brain, as it has an exercise component, a spatial awareness component, a cooperative component, a social-interaction component and so on. We can look at sparring in martial arts (call it fighting if you must) in much the same manner. Not only must you cooperate (or not cooperate) with your sparring partner, you must engage your physical and mental awareness, your deep cognitive abilities, your mathematical skills, etc. One may argue, however, that head trauma detracts from this argument! Still, I believe martial arts may be the single best exercise and health tool man has created to date. Not only physically, but mentally.

I am attracted to MMA because I like to see any aspect of martial arts break into the mainstream media. Unfortunately, the national psyche is not geared towards the more positive aspects of the sport, and few understand what those of us who are in it for the competition are really about.

I would love to take part in your show, and can be reached at fine_science@hotmail.com

Ideologic — Thu May 29th 5:28p.m.

Are dedication and sacrifices noble? Many dedicated people who sacrifice much are engaged in awful behavior. It takes both to be a serial killer, a suicide bomber or to imprison your daughter in a basement. While extreme examples, they make the case that dedication and sacrifice are unrelated to good deeds.

What are you really about? What are the positive aspects? What is good about competition, especially violent competition?

scottmil — Fri May 30th 12:43p.m.

Competition requires the betterment of self. It forces change, like evolution.

Most things are not black and white, good and bad. Good things have come from bad, and pain creates change, awareness.

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 5:54p.m.

FANTASTIC comments, and VERY well-rounded. Thank you!

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 5:50p.m.

Wow, some great, great posts here! Well written and very insightful. I'm author of a political and research-based book on MMA called "Fighting for Acceptance: Mixed Martial Artists and Violence in American Society" (http://MMAcademics.angelfire.com), and I will be chiming in tomorrow on this broadcast. Hope to hear from some of you!

mmacademics — Thu May 29th 7:52p.m.

Pan et circenses.

Bread and circuses.

In this case beer is the bread, only it is drunk, not eaten.

It's what Romans provided to the lower classes to keep them satisfied.

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 12:23p.m.

From the ratings of shows like American Idol, most Americans find mental and emotional brutality very entertaining. Why not the physical? How many degrees of difference are there? It's all pathetic and sad. But, perhaps this is who we are---an ironic nation of moral fundamentalists who are also savages. Americans love their cowboys---at least they are finally delivering.

Despite all that, it's a sport. Like it or not. It's all about competition. Are some forms of competition better then others? Perhaps, but who draws the line?

scottmil — Fri May 30th 12:26p.m.

I?m a 35 year old single mom, and I love MMA. I lean far to the left politically, am a former dancer, and a professional social worker. But, I love a good fight. It's exciting and intricate. I?m drawn to the skill and multidisciplinary approach MMA requires. Good fighters are admiringly dedicated and committed.

I appreciate the advent of the UFC. I?ve seen fights before the introduction of weight classes and rounds. Those fights were much more violent and tough for me to watch. The UFC has enabled MMA to grow in popularity and diversify the fan base.

I have always wanted to either purchase a pay-per-view fight or go to a sports bar to watch. But, I have not yet gone because I fear that I am an atypical fan. Would I fit in? Would I stick out? So, it?s back to my living room to enjoy the excitement?

abbeyfanya — Fri May 30th 12:27p.m.

I don't think there is an atypical fan. Every sports bar has a diffrent setting and diffrent clientel. Why not just find a buddy and go for it.

GreenMan5 — Thu July 31st 1:44p.m.

Cui bono?

Who benefits?

Who is making the money from promoting this?

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 12:28p.m.

At the beginning of the show, did you say the Northeast is the fight capital? Here I thought it was the Northwest.

jasonh97045 — Fri May 30th 12:28p.m.

I think we said Northwest. We certainly meant to.

David Miller — Fri May 30th 12:31p.m.

You were right! Julie just told me that I said Northeast. My apologies!

David Miller — Fri May 30th 1:23p.m.

I am not especially wimpy. Merchant marine, US Navy, Carpenter but I am offended by having pounding the crap out of anyone brought into everyone's living room. It is socially degrading.
Yes it is visceral, it has great draw to the animal inside. It is not socially elevating. The magnetism for boys, cannot be denied. But this, to social harmony, will not lead.

Who are we as a nation, as a state, and is this calling to our higher nature? No. The tendency is the other way. Is this the sort of thing you want in your child's imagination? Or your own?

Boxing is pay per view, and now, free in your living room, you can have a brawl and eat pop-corn.

I have no problem that they call this a "sport" and have an association for doing it. Of course the definition of "sportsmanship" must now be transformed. But I do not want those images broadcast so that every young boy thinking it is manly to pound the snuff out of someone's temple and ear is: "a man".

A man protects. This venture seems to me to be an assault. A money making one, but a degrading assault.

David Bean — Fri May 30th 12:32p.m.

What about the shows like the Contender? That was on broadcast television and boxing has the same elements of brutality. I think you are trying to shove MMA into a category that is not deserved for this disciplined and difficult sport.

bowerman61028 — Fri May 30th 12:38p.m.

It's disciplined and difficult to weave a rug in a sweatshop in 100 degree weather. So what? Discipline and difficulty say nothing about an action's inherent good.

I think we can also include The Contender in the same category of barbarism that MMA belongs to.

scottmil — Fri May 30th 12:49p.m.

"Who are we as a nation, as a state, and is this calling to our higher nature? No. The tendency is the other way. Is this the sort of thing you want in your child's imagination? Or your own?"

I see this a a result of decades of descent into Conservatism, the politics of promoting hate and divisiveness to keep the lower classes divided against each other. Wealthy Conservative Republicans are the only ones who could possibly benefit.

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 12:59p.m.

I haven't heard anyone, ESPECIALLY those in the ring (which I watch often) say that this is the path to becoming 'a man'. That's just insulting, as well as the fact that you ignore the number of women who enjoy this sport, in the ring and on the couch. The definition of who you are and how you feel about who you are depends greatly on your childhood and upbringing. If that upbringing included training in a martial art, and you are the better for it in self-respect, respect toward others, and a good work ethic, than bravo. I wish I had been learning Muay Thai from a young age instead of 22, because I would have been MUCH more prepared to deal with the 3 instances of workplace sexual harassment that have occured in my life. Instead, I retreated into myself, dealt with depression, and didn't face the problem. Each time I improved, but that shouldn't have been the case. I should have dealt with it in that moment, which martial arts trains you to do.

As I stated earlier, boxing has between one and three deaths a year. Sanctioned MMA matches have ZERO; and that's not per year, that's cummulative.

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 6:06p.m.

I find it interesting that the conversation twenty years ago was about fantasy violence that people knew was against others. Now we see that training yourself to harm others as quickly and effectively as possible is now seeing acceptance on network television.

Working with elementary school kids daily, I see the way kids who's parents currently allow them to immerse themselves in the MMA culture are much quicker to escalate situations into violence compared to those who are still watching the Disney channel.

Having studied martial arts for some time myself, I have found there are two schools of thought: those of us who follow the gentle way of establishing dominance over a foe while causing the least harm possible, and those who relish violence as it's own end and desire to establish their own dominance through harming others. I highly respect martial arts, but I find MMA to be an affront to the ethics I was taught while studying martial arts.

nighthawk — Fri May 30th 12:38p.m.

Equating masculine or feminine with aggression is plain wrong. I won't watch your sport, but I like boxing because there are rules against fighters getting too terribly injured. It is still an elegant fighting sport, unlike your uncivilized productions.

piotrorloff — Fri May 30th 12:40p.m.

Boxing is way more brutal than MMA. Many more boxers end up having permanent brain damage as oppossed to just artificial cuts and bruises that are the most common injuries. I'll take that over brain damage any day.

KatieE — Fri May 30th 12:46p.m.

"We've feminized men since the Roman times, so they don't like to fight now" is the gist of what I just heard from one of your guests. What sissies men are now- not like the Romans who used to abuse little kids, now, they were real men. Are you serious?
Boys are not designed to be warriors by their creator- I think that's probably up to the creator to decide how things are designed- not some fight-advocate who believes he knows what it is men and women were designed for. I'd like to think we've come farther in our evolution to see fighting as not gender-specific- it's not masculine- but stupid. Thank God there is some regulation in this state.

spetit — Fri May 30th 12:42p.m.

Of all the places the 'feminism' argument DOESN'T belong... and I'm a woman! Humans, not boys or girls, were given choice, and if they choose to be prepared for the violent world they live in, then their bodies and minds can be trained to do that. If not, then they may be at the mercy of those they are surrounded by. That's not a call to arms; it's an observation of the times. I don't think evolution has made our bodies LESS capable than those of the original martial arts masters, centuries ago...do you? These sports -- and they DO surround you, whether you know it or not -- are not stupid. The people who choose to learn them are prepared, strong, respectful members of our society, communities, and families. The very few who aren't respectful tend not to make it very far, or do it for 'show' on TV to sell more tickets to feed those families and bring more money into the community.

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 6:27p.m.

Is it a "Sport" If we must throw out our notion of "Sportsmanship"?

David Bean — Fri May 30th 12:42p.m.

Mix-martial arts is an amazing sport that an individual can perform with their body, however, just like the speaker mentioned, values are not being taught. Discipline is not being taught. These "fight-clubs" are springing up all over the place and they are teaching the fighting physical skills, but neglecting the mental discipline skills.

The idea of humans designed to fight is an absurd notion. Maybe in the past, but we have evolve to the point where we can recognize alternative paths to resolving conflict, especially here in the U.S. It's not in our nature, but a glorification of violence in our culture. Young males are socialized to express their masculinity ways in overt manners-like fighting.

The lack of education and the abundant availability of UFC is only going to exacerbate violence...

sims507 — Fri May 30th 12:44p.m.

I will agree with fact that when you train you don't get into street fights. I have trained MMA and BJJ for over three years and never in that time have I been involved in a street fight. My instructor who has been involved in martial arts for over 16 years has never had a confrontation turn into a fight. His instructor who is the highest ranked American black belt in BJJ and does seminars all over the world has been confronted all his life because of his race and he as well has never been in a street fight.

bowerman61028 — Fri May 30th 12:45p.m.

I think this is a horrible decision. There's already enough violence available to children, we don't need to glorify it even more. Why can't we concentrate on the less base side of humanity? I strongly disagree with the gentleman who said it's like a game of chess. In a chess game each move is pondered for a long time, while in cage fighting you rely on instinct without thinking. Let's bring attention to people who make humanity liveable like scientists and artists. I will be boycotting CBS.

chemicalcraig69 — Fri May 30th 12:47p.m.

regulated or not, the promoters on this show are not taking responsibility for the real life results of the violence being portrayed by them on television.

rainispring — Fri May 30th 12:48p.m.

OPB, you should be ashamed of yourself for publicizing this. Why not have gladiators vs. lions. Sure, some people get eaten or mauled, but that's part of the "sport." We as a society condemn prostitution because we say it degrades women. How is MMA not degrading to humans? Because our creator made us this way? Please. We are simply catering to the basest instincts. The caller questioning sportsmanship was correct. This is not a sport.

SteveA — Fri May 30th 12:48p.m.

I want to make sure I understand your criticism: we should be ashamed for TALKING about this hugely influential activity? Is it that you hear an hour of radio -- even one that includes detractors and debate -- as an explicit endorsement? My fear is that your concerns would lead us to shy away from any number of topics that are potentially divisive.

What do other folks think?

David Miller — Fri May 30th 1:03p.m.

"What do other folks think?"

Keep on discussing, in my opinion. Better to shine the light than to hide it.

The pro-MMA folks get to hear the opinions of the antis and try to justify their ideas, so it's good to talk on both sides.

And I'm not going to fight it out with those guys!

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 1:34p.m.

Thanks. As stated, I see no sportsmanship in punching/kicking a man when he is down.

PaulLG — Sat May 31st 1:47a.m.

I find it laughable and sad that someone at the beginning of the show said that Cage Fighting appeals to everyone - that's hardly the case, I find it repulsive. I have to work at a venue that rents to a promoter and so I have seen first hand the people that come to and participate in these events and would rather be on Mars than in the same room with most of them. That said, it's a world they choose to inhabit - so let them.

NancyOwenSwain — Fri May 30th 12:49p.m.

Justifying it through religion, well that explains a lot. Asserting that boys are "designed" to fight by their "creator".

Religion is the first great lie told to children in order to manipulate them into accepting abuse by persons in position of power and authority and all kings, pharoahs, emperors, dictators, and their ilk have used it to abuse.

Promoting violence between the lower classes keeps their minds off of the real violence done to them by the wealthy and powerful.

An interesting show indeed!

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 12:49p.m.

YAY! i was offended too!!

rainispring — Fri May 30th 12:50p.m.

Don't you know that the males fighting nature is another great example of INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

scottmil — Fri May 30th 12:54p.m.

Oops, the software won't allow deleting this post.

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 1:07p.m.

Yow! Ha ha ha!

Good one!

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 1:15p.m.

I don't see religion as justification at all. Religious or not, we have the choice to learn these skills or not to, just as we are free to practice religion or not. The one is not predicated upon the other, and it's not a case of the chicken or the egg.

As for religion, and its use by powerful people to 'keep the man down'...well, that's an entirely different discussion.

And I don't see Bush, Obama, McCain or Clinton duking it out ("the real violence done to them by the wealthy and powerful"). The power of the wealthy and powerful is given to them by the many, because we live in a democratic state. We are the ones who can create change, and often sit on our a** instead.

To get back to the real issue, MMA, it is a sport, like football, rugby, gymnastics, soccer, lacrosse, biking, tennis, skiing, etc. Ironically, it is also generations (if not centuries) older than all of those. Please take a moment to understand where Martial Arts came from before you pontificate about them.

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 6:48p.m.

great if you participate. athletics are great. violence portrayed as entertainment has repeatedly been proven to create more violence.

rainispring — Fri May 30th 12:50p.m.

There are better ways to learn discipline than beating on another human being.

chemicalcraig69 — Fri May 30th 12:56p.m.

Yes... like learning to ride horses, or engaging in the discipline of music, or learning some languages. The idea that you have to physically beat on someone else to learn discipline is absurd.

adamrobins — Fri May 30th 1p.m.

I wanted to respond to the caller who claimed hitting a man when he is down is un-sportsman like. The guest is correct. The caller simply does not understand the sport. When a man gets knocked down, unless he is clearly knocked out, the fight has simply gone to the ground. If the fighter can no longer defend himself the ref is usually quick to stop the fight which shows how the sport is kept as safe as possible.

ctaylor00 — Fri May 30th 12:57p.m.

I called in to the program and made the comment that I think hitting a man when he is down in un-sportsman like. I did not feel that my point was addressed; I was merely told that I 'do not understand'. If I understand correctly from your post, it is okay to hit an opponent when he is down as long as he is conscious and able to attempt to protect himself?

I rest my case.

PaulLG — Sat May 31st 1:42a.m.

So is any man who doesn't feel like climbing into a cage to fight another guy a "feminized man" as you say?

I had to check to see if I was listening to OPB or some clowning around show on one of the various top-40-alterna-classic-rock stations.

What a couple of people want to do on their own is their own business, but just because you like fighting MMA doesn't mean I have to join in.

Force is the weapon of the weak.

adamrobins — Fri May 30th 12:58p.m.

Totally agree with this comments and similar ones. As a veteran U.S. Marine and 20-year practicioner of martial arts, I totally DISAGREE with much of what Matt had to say. Paul the listener isn't the only one who needs education. "The Creator" did NOT create man to be a fighting animal. I lean much more strongly towards Buddhism, but have read the Bible many times and there is no mention in "The Creator's" word that says man is a fighting animal and should pursue that act.

Any bonafide martial artist knows that the higher-order practice of martial arts isn't to defeat an enemy or competitor, it's to defeat one's own egoic orientation. Indeed, the ultimate purpose of martial arts isn't martial at all, it's spiritual.

As for Matt's comments about feminized men: Matt is allowing his personal opinion (and perhaps his own orientation) to defile his martial art. I'm not saying he's gay, his sexual orientation is his business. But to say the feminization of men is an evolutionary bad thing misses the point that genders exist as balancing forces of one another. Many men on the planet could benefit from some feminization in a sense that there are many positive attributes of the feminine expression that could balace the masculine in man.

Not only would a greater feminization equate to better relationships among and between men, it may also allow people like Matt to see the higher order purposes of the Martial arts and the true purpose of man: to express their divinity, not their penchant for brutality.

perkygrubb — Fri May 30th 1:12p.m.

Well said and written.

And I see that the software is duplicating posts. I had that problem above.

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 1:27p.m.

Totally agree with this comments and similar ones. As a veteran U.S. Marine and 20-year practicioner of martial arts, I totally DISAGREE with much of what Matt had to say. Paul the listener isn't the only one who needs education. "The Creator" did NOT create man to be a fighting animal. I lean much more strongly towards Buddhism, but have read the Bible many times and there is no mention in "The Creator's" word that says man is a fighting animal and should pursue that act.

Any bonafide martial artist knows that the higher-order practice of martial arts isn't to defeat an enemy or competitor, it's to defeat one's own egoic orientation. Indeed, the ultimate purpose of martial arts isn't martial at all, it's spiritual.

As for Matt's comments about feminized men: Matt is allowing his personal opinion (and perhaps his own orientation) to defile his martial art. I'm not saying he's gay, his sexual orientation is his business. But to say the feminization of men is an evolutionary bad thing misses the point that genders exist as balancing forces of one another. Many men on the planet could benefit from some feminization in a sense that there are many positive attributes of the feminine expression that could balace the masculine in man.

Not only would a greater feminization equate to better relationships among and between men, it may also allow people like Matt to see the higher order purposes of the Martial arts and the true purpose of man: to express their divinity, not their penchant for brutality.

perkygrubb — Fri May 30th 1:15p.m.

My former room mate was a part of "team quest". His attitude was very bad. He would get into bar fights, he would try to fight me, he liked violence. This does go aginst everything that the caller said was part of a professional fighter.

I am totally agianst violence in any form, and this includes boxing, kick boxing, and so called "mixed martial arts". We should be teaching people how to fight, we should be teaching people about peace. I am not even a fan of so called "Pro-Wrestling" as this does show children it is ok to fight.

I also think that the idea of a man "is built to fight" is a concept that should be reserved to people who are the mental age of a 12 year old. A christian believes that God created man in his own image, does that mean God was built to fight? If He is, that scares me.

VictorC — Fri May 30th 1:03p.m.

"A christian believes that God created man in his own image, does that mean God was built to fight? If He is, that scares me."

Some of us believe that man created God in mans own image, which I think better explains the ways things actually are.

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 1:40p.m.

Totally agree with your last paragraph Tom. Man has created the Creator in his own image. And the world reflects this. However, the true Creator is reasserting itself. That's a positive emerging outcome.

perkygrubb — Fri May 30th 5:32p.m.

My former room mate was a part of "team quest". His attitude was very bad. He would get into bar fights, he would try to fight me, he liked violence. This does go aginst everything that the caller said was part of a professional fighter.

I am totally agianst violence in any form, and this includes boxing, kick boxing, and so called "mixed martial arts". We should be teaching people how to fight, we should be teaching people about peace. I am not even a fan of so called "Pro-Wrestling" as this does show children it is ok to fight.

I also think that the idea of a man "is built to fight" is a concept that should be reserved to people who are the mental age of a 12 year old. A christian believes that God created man in his own image, does that mean God was built to fight? If He is, that scares me.

VictorC — Fri May 30th 1:04p.m.

My former room mate was a part of "team quest". His attitude was very bad. He would get into bar fights, he would try to fight me, he liked violence. This does go aginst everything that the caller said was part of a professional fighter.

I am totally agianst violence in any form, and this includes boxing, kick boxing, and so called "mixed martial arts". We should be teaching people how to fight, we should be teaching people about peace. I am not even a fan of so called "Pro-Wrestling" as this does show children it is ok to fight.

I also think that the idea of a man "is built to fight" is a concept that should be reserved to people who are the mental age of a 12 year old. A christian believes that God created man in his own image, does that mean God was built to fight? If He is, that scares me.

VictorC — Fri May 30th 1:05p.m.

My former room mate was a part of "team quest". His attitude was very bad. He would get into bar fights, he would try to fight me, he liked violence. This does go aginst everything that the caller said was part of a professional fighter.

I am totally agianst violence in any form, and this includes boxing, kick boxing, and so called "mixed martial arts". We should be teaching people how to fight, we should be teaching people about peace. I am not even a fan of so called "Pro-Wrestling" as this does show children it is ok to fight.

I also think that the idea of a man "is built to fight" is a concept that should be reserved to people who are the mental age of a 12 year old. A christian believes that God created man in his own image, does that mean God was built to fight? If He is, that scares me.

VictorC — Fri May 30th 1:06p.m.

thank you all at think out loud for putting me on twice today!! as a surivivor of domestic violence, and a 2 year old son- I am fighting the good fight against violence in my home and now my community. No TV at our house!
-RAINI

rainispring — Fri May 30th 1:06p.m.

My former room mate was a part of "team quest". His attitude was very bad. He would get into bar fights, he would try to fight me, he liked violence. This does go aginst everything that the caller said was part of a professional fighter.

I am totally agianst violence in any form, and this includes boxing, kick boxing, and so called "mixed martial arts". We should be teaching people how to fight, we should be teaching people about peace. I am not even a fan of so called "Pro-Wrestling" as this does show children it is ok to fight.

I also think that the idea of a man "is built to fight" is a concept that should be reserved to people who are the mental age of a 12 year old. A christian believes that God created man in his own image, does that mean God was built to fight? If He is, that scares me.

VictorC — Fri May 30th 1:10p.m.

thank you all at think out loud for putting me on twice today!! I want to say I support the physical participation in athletics- including martial arts. The issue I am fighting is violence on television. As a surivivor of domestic violence, and a mother of a 2 year old son- I am fighting the good fight against violence in my home. No TV at our house!
-RAINI

rainispring — Fri May 30th 1:11p.m.

I'm very excited to see this sport, and these athletes, get more exposure. My husband has been training in 5 or 6 different martial arts, with 3 black belts, for 26 years. He's had a retina detach twice and is a professional artist, so he respects my wishes not to go pro as an MMA fighter. However, 50% of TV time in our house is normally on IFL, UFC, and other MMA shows.

Did you know that there are no recorded deaths in regulated MMA matches, but between 1 and 3 deaths in boxing each year? That's something to chew on, for those like Senator McCain, who think that MMA is "cockfighting".

Also, thank you, Matt Lindland, for taking your time to clear up some questions about these sports. I think very few people understand the basis of the majority of martial arts. These are incredibly old systems of values, learning, respect, and of course moves, kicks, and hits which were developed through warfare. Or in the case of Capoeira, it is a 'sport' based on round movements and music that African slaves brought with them when 'relocated' to Brazil. They were not allowed to practice fighting (an attempt to keep them from revolting against their owners), so they turned it into a dance, which their owners would allow.

There are reasons that many fighters continue to hit and kick when their opponent is on the ground or in the guard. (1) Some want to get the fight over as quickly as possible, which is not a great reason. (2) Multiple martial arts intentionally take you to the ground, and it's a test of your skills how you get out of that situation. The ground is not intended for wrestling. That's a sport of its own. The ground is another part of the ring, like standing; you just have to use different skills. Only on the ground would be wrestling. Only standing would be kick boxing. The point of martial arts, expecially mixed martial arts, is a very wide skill set.

And on that point, this is what those kids on YouTube don't have. They don't have training. These are people with no self respect and no empathy or sympathy, which are things you do learn in all martial arts. Shame on their parents. When I have kids, we will choose which martial art they train in to start, and they will have a basis of learning, hard work, and respect for the rest of their lives. They don't have to go as far with it as my husband does, but they will learn the basics.

The martial arts saved my husband's life. He was bullied and fought every day living overseas on an Army base, and no one cared to protect him. He built skills over time to defend himself, and once back in the US, a dojo was the only place he could go to escape a bad home life. Martial arts gave him self respect and confidence, something his home life never taught him. And since they couldn't afford to pay for his classes, he cleaned the dojo after hours and painted murals to earn his training.

To all of you MMA fighters out there, keep up the good work. And please make sure you are keeping up on outreach. I like the idea of public service announcments. Coming from these 'tough guys', I think it's putting responsibility on the right shoulders, and asking responsibility of everyone who appreciates the sport.

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 1:31p.m.

I'll be logical and then "funny"...

The arguement that this training prepares someone if they were to be violently attacked is a bit odd when this thing that some call a "sport" only perpetuates violence and ensures that our society needs a means to defend itself by creating more violence within it.

You are not an athlete. This is not a sport. You train to cause pain and hurt and violence in the most effective way possible. There are no points and the only goal is to harm another human. The "rules" are only there to keep people from enough harm and death so you can continue to participate in your personal war against your fellow man.

I'm glad someone brought up the Romans. Gladiators fought for their lives and freedom when they had no choice. You choose to harm your fellow man and your life and freedom are not at stake... Do not compare yourself to them. There is no comparison; you are far far below them.

Ahhh American Idol... I await the day that we all call in and vote whether or not the fight should continue, whether or not an animal posing as a man should live or die.

The Romans didn't last long as a civilization when they began this moral downward spiral; we are not far behind. Hopefully enough others will figure this out before it is too late.

I used to work with adolecent males just getting out of the various instituons in Oregon and trying to turn themselves around. I've heard all the arguments that this is a sport and violence is ok, and this is a way to vent, and now I want to vent by trying the stuff I see on TV on the person next to me. These are 18-25 year olds...

Violence can only beget more violence. Attempting to label violence as a sport only makes violence more socially acceptable. Violence should never be acceptable.

And I'm not even going to get started on the feminization of males bit...

-kyle

rakozink inc — Fri May 30th 2:15p.m.

Aparently Kyle has never been put in a situation where he has had to defend himself. It's lucky for him, and I hope that that trend continues in his life. Unfortunately, my husband's family was destitute... not poor, but truly destitute and homeless for a period of a couple years. When you are in that situation and living in a city at a young age, you can find yourself in a seriously unhealthy and violent environment, like he did. To be given the tools to rise above that situation, learn the benefits of hard work, earn your teacher and classmate's respect, and know that you are less likely to be hurt in the future because of your skills is an incredibly powerful thing.

It would also be beneficial if you knew the first thing about the variety of martial arts. You apparently also haven't heard of Aikido, which is the practice of using your opponent's movements and power non-aggressively, without harming them or yourself. It is the art of the takedown, to subdue an attacker, with no kicks, hits, etc. This is the art my husband would like to learn next, and it take many years to master.

Have you noticed that there is a war going on? Wait, there are multiple wars and conflicts, and this is a continuous problem since the dawn of man. We do not live in a peaceful society, and to be prepared for the society that we ACTUALLY live in, as opposed to the society you would LIKE to live in is a choice each person has to make. And as 'perkygrubb' notes, "the ultimate purpose of martial arts isn't martial at all, it's spiritual." That's because the majority of Asian martial arts, and Capoeira, have evolved to be inclusive of some kind of religion, whether it be Buddhism (many monks are martial arts masters), Confucism, etc. Are you going to tell me that Buddhists are violent?

The industrial revolution negated hand-to-hand combat, for the most part, so martial arts have become a 'sport', as you hate to call it. And the government requires those with this kind of training to hold themselves more accountable than the rest of citizenry. If my husband were to be in a bar fight, he would be automatically hand-cuffed and could easily be charged with a felony. The government holds him more accountable because he holds blackbelts and could seriously harm an untrained citizen. We not only don't go to bars because the atmosphere lends itself to an unstable situation; We also don't go out drinking with friends at homes because people chat, and then find out that you love martial arts, and they ALWAYS want a demonstration. This is the height of bad judgement, and we never follow through.

The following countries have developed a style of their own martial arts, and most have 2 or 3: Russia, Greece, Japan, Ireland, China, Thailand, Brazil, the Philipines and Israel. I know that's not all of them. There are reasons these have developed, whether fighting an enemy on horseback (Wushu), grappling (Pankration), weapons (Bata), self-defense (Aikido), or throwing (Judo). I recomend you read up on them before passing judgement on the people who practice them. The point of mixed martial arts is to pull what works best for each person from each art, and put them to use against an opponent with different moves and training. It's a celebration of 'sports' older than you care to admit.

And my husband IS an athlete. He is better shape at 32 than when he played college soccer on scholarship. He doesn't train to cause pain, he just realized that point sparring, which he also did, did not properly prepare one for an actual fight. There is no resistance and no pain to learn from. Pain is his teacher. He works out for hours at a time, not hurting anyone but a punching bag. Those who would grapple and train with him, he would only work out with if they were as committed as he. Those who step in the ring or on a practice mat are prepared to learn and improve. Their bravado is often a show, as they would like to sell tickets to be able to feed their families, which most of them have. They aren't as different from you as you would like to think. Maybe you should meet one before bashing them...

And rugby is violent, also. Would you like to dissapoint Australia, England, etc. and ask for rugby to be stopped? Well, martial arts is respected by many more countries than rugby, and has more protective padding, so you might want to think about the whys on that...

Lucki13 — Fri May 30th 3:38p.m.

well thank you for asking but no I have never been in a situation that I could not talk my way out of despite my 6 years in tae kwon do, 2 years in Kendo, and some time in akido.

I am very well versed in the history of martial arts and many of the various philosophies.

The society of today is what we make it. If we choose to live in war then there is war. If we choose not to there is not. In fact, most martial arts philosophies support this.

I spend lots of time in a bar every week. I study there more often than not. I have worked in bars. In 10 years of this I have never seen a barfight. I don't know why there is an unstable atmosphere where you are but I suggest you find somwhere else to go. If that doesn't work maybe you are making the atmosphere unstable. I talk to my friends about my martial arts and they NEVER ask for a demonstration.

Violence is a part of man's history. Someday enough people will figure out that doing things the same way and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

As you can see I have no qualms with martial arts. I have major problems with the idea that we put two men in a cage like animals and allow them to attempt to harm one another in the most vicious way possible in front of fans, on camera, on tv for money and entertainment. The fact that they use martial arts training to hurt each other more and in hopes of disguising this act as a sport perverts many martial arts philosophies and does harm to all of humanity.

Your husband does sound athletic. If he takes part in a martial arts competition where he earns points for proper hits and good technique then he may be an athlete. If he hops in a ring, cage, dojo, or bar and seeks to use his knowledge to do harm to another until they give up or simply can't continue he is merely another vilolent animal waging war on his fellow men for his own benifit. I hope you married a man and not an animal.

rakozink inc — Fri May 30th 4:46p.m.

I've been seeing this a lot on here, people thinking the point of an MMA bout is to cause pain. The fighters are in no way judged by how much pain they cause. They are judged, however, on on proper hits and technique. Just like other full contact fights a fighter can end the bout early by knocking the other person out or getting him to submit. There is a lot of skill and control in this, in fact without skill and control a fighter will loose pretty quickly. MMA is really a test of that skill in its purest form.

I have been on both sides of fighting. Due to being fairly small (5'9" and 125lbs in HS) I looked an easy target for bullys and learned to defend myself at a young age. I was a part of many unorganized fights. These were very violent and animalistic. On the other side I spent quite a bit of time in a gym sparring (full contact) with gloves and quite often full body and head gear. This was much more controlled and much more fullfilling. It was just a friend and I having fun. There was no animostiy or hostility, yet we still managed to go hard for hours. There is a huge diffrence between the two types of fighting. One form does not begat the other. Neither does some kid watching MMA on tv want to go out and fight in the streets, if anything they want to train and get in the ring themself. In my opinion it shows people a proper place to test their fighting prowess.

I quit street fighting years ago. The U.S. Marine Corps calmed me down when I realized I could get in trouble. I have not been in a street fight in over 10 years. I also have not found a situation I couldn't talk my way out of. I still enjoy sparring with friends but am very limited due to injuries while in the Marines or else I would train for MMA myself.

Lastly I find it very poor taste for you to attack her husband. You are doing with words exactly what you're preaching against with hands and fists. Frankly I find MMA bouts less animilistic than you're low cut jabs. Atleast there you'd be penalized for it.

GreenMan5 — Thu July 31st 3:43p.m.

Great discussion! I was the person from Hawaii on the panel. I'd have to agree, that masculinity plays into MMA and other sports a great deal. By that, I mean notions of masculinity are taught or nurtured. Very little, if anything is innate or "God-given" about it. I feel far too many adolescent males and young men jump into MMA as a way to prove their masculine mettle in a violent way, and I see that as a major problem in MMA. I'm sorry I didn't get to express this while on air.

With that said, I am a supporter of the sport, and I feel MMA organizations need to INITIATE more active education in this area. They need to have the athletes and coaches say publicly that this is a sport in which the top level participants know how to defend themselves and are properly conditioned to do so over an extended match. And further, that MMA is not street violence, and should never be taken to the street, home, school, and so forth. Of course, there are MMA athletes who have engaged in street violence, and if they continue to do so, promoters should suspend them, as would likely be done in a sport like the NBA or NFL. The sport can definitely have a negative impact on youth (boys and girls) if this kind of responsibility is not initiated by the MMA community. It would mean integrating those values that are indigenous to the traditional martial arts and disseminating them more effectively beyond MMA students. I feel having MMA fighters tell youth not to fight in the street could be a very effective method of curbing youth violence (though I admit, that strategy has yet to be tested scientifically).

The other topic that wasn't discussed enough on the broadcast was safety. Personally, I feel MMA is safer than football, hockey, boxing, and rugby because those are collision sports with much more momentum and/or constant head punching. I'd say given the level of concussions and knee injuries in women's basketball and soccer, MMA is about as safe/dangerous as those sports. The real danger in MMA is when promoters pit an experience MMA athlete against inexperienced ones - and this does occur in smaller MMA shows far too often. Also, one of the conditions that makes MMA safer is having an experienced referee, who stops matches quickly. Had we been able to talk about this, we could have responded to the caller who was bringing up hitting a downed opponent (I know, he was focusing more on sportsmanship). Still, a qualified referee will insure someone who's sustained a flash knockout is protected immediately. Medical research has shown that flash knockouts do not cause long-term brain damage nearly to the degree that repeated head strikes do, as in boxing (citation: http://fightticker.com/story_0512080736_dr_benjamin_qa_part_two).

Well, a lively discussion here! That is positive. Feel free to email me at MMAcademics@yahoo.com or visit our website at http://MMAcademics.angelfire.com

mmacademics — Fri May 30th 3:05p.m.

Unfortunately, every religion has been used to abuse people, including Buddhism:

Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html#notes


I had always wondered why China invaded Tibet and whether the communist dislike for religious oppression was part of the reason. It seems that no religion has clean hands.

Now. One of the best quotes I ever read was "I am human, nothing human is foreign to me", and I forget who said it. To me it means that everything that humans have done, good or bad is available to me, I too, could do it, and so I am always at choice, and always aware of what are the consequences of what I choose to do. It is the best load I have ever carried and the toughest one to deal with. I don't pretend there is some God telling me "do" or "not do", there is only me and you and constantly trying to figure what is the best, the most effective way to get along with each other. So I admire people who train in martial arts in order to not have to use them. But using those arts as a circus for entertainment, to pique the violent instincts of an audience for pleasure and to sell beer (bread) and make a profit, now that I don't admire.


Some folks worship the warriors, and some acknowledge them but admire the ones who prevent the wars; the lawyers who negotiate treaties, the statesmen who use diplomacy, and the martial artists who know when to not fight. Perhaps the greater skill is in preventing the fight.

/ end rant.

Tom D Ford — Fri May 30th 10:55p.m.

"We've feminized men since the Roman times".

That's one of the tenets of right-wing Conservative Christian Evangelicals. They reject the teachings of Jesus Christ as feminine but still claim to be "saved" by Jesus the Christ because of their "faith" in him. I learned that from a white supremacist in discussions on the old Talk of the Nation discussion boards. Boy those were some discussions.

The racist Christian Identity group comes to mind also, far right Conservative Christians.

Tom D Ford — Sun June 1st 7:37p.m.

I still can't beilieve in it..

justinbierber — Mon Nov. 29th 2:05a.m.

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