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From The Conventions: Undercurrents and Issues

AIR DATE: Tuesday, September 2nd 2008

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Opening day at the Republican National Convention in Minneapolis-St. Paul was buffeted by both Hurricane Gustav and revelations that the 17 year old daughter of GOP vice presidential pick Sarah Palin is five months pregnant.

Gustav appears to be less threatening than originally anticipated. It's less clear how the news about Bristol Palin, who, according to a statement by her parents, plans to have her child and marry the father, will play in the presidential campaign.

Democratic nominee Barack Obama responded to these developments by saying families should be off limits in campaigns and noting that his mother was 18 when he was born.

What is the take-away message about teen pregnancies in a race where it features, for perhaps the first time, as a real issue facing real families, rather than a statistic?

In our recent As We Are program talking with two teenage mothers, sex-ed came up in passing. Whatever was available to the young women we spoke with didn't seem to resonate much. Oregon receives $365,000 in federal funds for abstinence education, although some states have begun to refuse the money. New state guidelines on sex ed were approved last year, aiming to endorse abstinence while teaching safe sex practices.

How much does the cautious discussion about teen mothers in this presidential campaign reflect the parties' current stances on abortion? Last week the Democrats affirmed their unwavering support for legal abortions, but added a section in their platform (pdf) about health care and education as a way to "reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions." The GOP platform committee decided to keep language condemning abortion under any circumstances, a tougher line than Senator John McCain has taken.

What is being taught in local classrooms, through ads, pop culture and now the presidential campaigns, to teenagers about sex and pregnancy?

GUESTS:

 

• Bob Avery: Republican delegate from Junction City, Oregon
• Jessica Bogli: Education consultant and trainer and former health education teacher in Oregon
• Gina Harris: Executive director of Friends First

 

I have always thought that the "teen pregnancy" crisis has been portrayed disingenuiously. I think there is a major racist and classist undercurrent. It has never been a problem that the offspring of a middle class or better child of a child occures. The event that strikes fear in the hearts of your average news consumer is the image of young poor non-whites reproducing out of control.

Snyder Harr — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:11p.m.

Why should families be off limits? Mrs. Palin introduced her family, in the sense that this told us something about her. So, if the family is part of the campaign then it should also be part of the criticism. Mrs. Palin opened the door for this. The message was clear, we are an all American family. Her children were being advertised.

scottmil — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:11p.m.

True. My comment is on the judgment of Palin in that she KNEW her daughter would be dragged through the media, as did the Republican Party. I think they made a calculation that they could use this as a distraction, and we are proving they were right.

NeutralPoint — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:47p.m.

As much as I would like to say, there is a calculation and conspiracy in everything---I'm not so sure. The other side seems equally plausible, that they knew this would be an issue, but they hoped it would be a minor issue that got little air time. I assume everyone well get back to Mrs. Palin and the experience question soon enough!

scottmil — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:11p.m.

Palins policies? Unwed, underage, and unplanned teen pregnancy!

Daughters deserve better Family Planning than that.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:26p.m.

On the Republican Vice President Choice Against Choice:

"If you're against womens rights, Sarah Palin is your ma'am".

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:29p.m.

Sara Palin's daughter may have the support of her family but what about teens who do not have that support. Not everyone is Jamie Lynn Spears or Juno. It is not easy to have a child when you are a child yourself. Abstinence education is obviously not working.

Elizabeth01 — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:37p.m.

If you advocate morals with certainty, and introduce your morals, and your religion into politics---then perhaps it does say something about you if you can't control your underage children. I personally don't believe it matters in a general sense. But, in the sense that this goes against the morals or "family values," that Republicans particularly introduce into politics, then it matters.

Republicans can't have it both ways, they can't preach family values and absolute morals and then ask to be judged by a different standard---in a liberal Democratic mode.

scottmil — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:37p.m.

"If you advocate morals with certainty, and introduce your morals, and your religion into politics---then perhaps it does say something about you if you can't control your underage children."



Good point.

And I'd add that they can't train their children to control themselves, either. Conservative Republicanism just doesn't work.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:48p.m.

The real reason that Conservatives are against family planning is that when people are allowed to take control of their own bodies and plan about how many babies to have and when to have them, Conservatives lose control of their population of Cheap-Labor to exploit. They're called Cheap-labor Conservatives for a reason.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:42p.m.

I think it is ironic that we are talking about Palin's daughter's pregnancy, and not about her complete lack of experience or qualification to be a President. On topic: A good friend of mine found out that her 14 year old daughter is pregnant and has already had complications, but because of her beliefs the mother is forcing her to go to term. The daughter was not taught the basics and was compromised. What I wonder is how much peers might help in this situation?

NeutralPoint — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:43p.m.

With all due respect, I believe this discussion completely misses the point. I struggle with the vast contradictions. Political leaders who strougly advocate against government intrusion into the lives of citizens and especially into families advocate government intrusion into some of the most private and personal lives of its citizens and especially families. What and how families should teach their children about sex. The decision of whether or not to have an abortion. There are numerous examples of these contradictions and political leaders, in this case, Sara Palins, should be asked how she comes to terms with such contradictions. It has implications for many of her other positions and provide information about her leadership abilities.

As for the daughter of Sara Palins being pregnant: So what ? Who cares. Once a child reaches a certain age parental ability to control that child decreases and continues to decrease. Whether Sara Palins could have had greater influence such as to have prevented such pregnancy if she had been more actively involved instead of being the leader of the state of Alaska, maybe and maybe not. This is something only her daughter can make a valid guess. The only thing we can guess with certainty is that it may have increased Palins chances to have influenced her daughter in a different direction. Much depends on the type of relationship Palins has with her daughter.

MeanMachine2 — Sat Sept. 6th 9:29a.m.

Sarah Palins circumstance with her pregnant 17 year old daughter is the ultimate example of her failed philosophy of abstenance only birth control. Clearly it does not work. Sarah Palin is against condoms, birth control pills, and any other method of birth control other than abstenance. A very unrealistic point of view even for her own family. Is this the example we want to hold up for the future of America?

HarrisonB — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:44p.m.

I would like to hear a discussion regarding the role model influence of a possible VP's daughter being a teen mother. Will the Republican party reaction of turning her pregnancy into a "positive" affect other young women's thoughts being pregnant at 17: it is not just OK, but desirable?

Andy Louden — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:46p.m.

As in:

"Actions speak louder than words." Quote somebody.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:08p.m.

My own experience is that I got practical, biological, information from my school, but if there was any depth, it missed me because "I" didn't feel they were the appropriate people to be deciding those things for me. I also didn't feel my peers were appropriate guides. I got my values from my parents and they taught us to be self reliant, balanced, and to know & face the consequences of our own actions. As a teenager, I did not feel I was ready for any of the consequences of sex, physical or emotional, so I didn't do it. My sister, with the same parents and the same school, made different choices, but took appropriate measures and didn't get pregnant.

I just don't think "information" is wrong. Knowing how to use a condom was not encouragement to use one for me -- especially since it included all the ways it can be used wrong, making it an ineffective tool.

katied — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:47p.m.

The young woman who was on ealier, didn't catch her name, said that after so many years, the abstinence rate among teens who received abstinence education was something like 98 percent ... ?

My question is: How do you know? Where do you get that information?

From the teens?

jackiem — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:51p.m.

Obviously a made up number. The rate for the most committed, the "Abstinence Vow" children, is only around 70%.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:13p.m.

My statistic was on a program of ours. In a 12 month follow up of girls who completed The Quinceanera Program, 94% of them remained sexually abstinent. This is a 24 hour parent-teen program. It also increased parent-child communication about sex by 29%. True abstinence education is a program that is more than "don't have sex until you are married." It incorporates parents, role models, refusal skills, setting boundaries, character education and much more. We are currently conducting a 5 year, federally funded research project with the University of Northern Colorado and I anticipate the same kind of postitive results.
I would like to hold the "abstinence-based" community to the same standards. What are their results in keeping teens abstinent? And I do want to re-iterate that I am not opposed to contraceptive information in schools. I am opposed to the careless manner in which it is presented, including a very WEAK abstinence component.

gharrs — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:41p.m.

gharrs,

Quote below from your own program materials and the limitations of the results:

"More research using randomized controls is necessary to determine the effectiveness of the program. The low sexual activity rates reported by participants could be due to other factors such as religiosity."

scottmil — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:56p.m.

Exactly why we are doing a full scale evaluation. The preliminary results were enough to merit this study.

gharrs — Tue Sept. 2nd 2:06p.m.

Do you honestly believe that most 15-year-olds who promised to remain abstinent, but didn't, are going to admit it?

Unless your statistics are based on a gynecological exam, I don't buy that number for a second. In fact, a statistic I heard a few weeks ago, was that those programs have an almost total failure rate.

Show me lab tests, not the word of a 15 year old who wants people to believe he or she kept her word.

jackiem — Tue Sept. 2nd 4:11p.m.

"In a 12 month follow up of girls who completed The Quinceanera Program, 94% of them remained sexually abstinent."


Since your program is fifteen years old, do you have statistics for longer than the period from Quinceanera, which I understand to occur at 15 years old in Mexican-Americans who are mostly Roman Catholics, to 16 years old? Two, three, or four year effectiveness? Other groups than Mexican-Americans?

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 2:13p.m.

I'd like some support for that statistic of 94%. There's been a considerable amount of evidence to suggest that teens in such programs are being taught that the big thing is to not have intercourse, but this then migrates to hair-splitting of the "Oral sex doesn't count" type. Is this abstinence? I'm doubtful: it's still sex (and good sex, frequently), but it fails to meet the abstinence criterion.

JohnHedtke — Wed Sept. 3rd 12:46a.m.

I am actually appalled that the Republicans and religious conservatives that are part of the party, can forge ahead with what a great family person Sarah Palin is. Yes, all families have their difficulties and people make mistakes, even the children of politicians. The test of what a family is made of is how they respond to their mistakes. A mom with a 7 month old Downs child and a 17 year old unwed mother should not be taking off to further her own career. Both of these children are high needs children at this point and they need their mom out of the spotlight. Family values call for parents putting their own desires on hold to be the best parents they can. If Ms. Palin wants a political career she needs to wait. Her daughter's plight may be a result of an absent mom already!

gramma g — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:54p.m.

I have heard many opinions, and theories. What does the data show?
Shouldn't public policy be data driven?
The only relevant outcomes data are pregnancy rate and std rate not the number reporting abstinence

jamesjng — Tue Sept. 2nd 12:58p.m.

Data can be used and abused. There is no way to gather perfect data on teen sexual activity without physically examining every teenager. The only data we have is from reported pregnancies, stds or from surveys by teens themselves who can say whatever they want on surveys.
Public policy should come from information a little broader then data gathering, i.e. working with people who live with, work with or care for teens and then making some guesses based on limited information.

gramma g — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:08p.m.

What about the boy? He just got hit by a Conservative Republican freight train that eliminated any choice he had about abortion, adopting the baby out, delaying marriage, or even not getting married. His girlfriends' mother just got picked to be the Republican VP candidate. I hope he's ok with it all, I hope he doesn't turn out to be a grouchy unwilling father and take it out on the kid.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:03p.m.

Apparently no one is thinking about the teenagers involved. Statistics are against this marriage being successful and the nationwide publicity will not help. The children of public figures are very often sacrificed for the parents careers. Unfortunately for Levi he is has been dragged along for the public ride.

gramma g — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:13p.m.

Good points.

And that's the first time I've heard the boys name. Do you know how old he is?

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:27p.m.

Unfortuantely it appears some of the promoters of abstinence education are focusing on demonizing sex. Truthfully some hardships can come from sexual activity, but at the sametime sex is a normal & healthy part of life. There are risks involved with any major activity in life, such as say driving/learning to drive a car.

Also abstinence proponents are also neglecting people who may not have plans to get married or who can't, such as homosexuals.

Contraceptives will fail some, but so will abstinence as well. Abstinence should NOT be pushed as the ultimate goal for a teen to acheive. Doing so places a stigma on sex & also does not cater to all parties who may be affected by this education.

Klinky — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:04p.m.

I do applaud the decision of Republicans to "take off their Republican hats and put on their American hats" and care for their fellow Americans and I encourage them to turn wearing their American hats into a habit.

The irony is that they acknowledged that they are "two-faced", anti-people normally and just pro-people when they are in the public eye.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:19p.m.

My name is Gina Harris and I am the Executive Director of FRIENDS FIRST. I was just interviewed on the show. Because of time limitations, I was not able to comment on how sexually active teens receive our message. In the 15 years that FRIENDS FIRST has existed, we have never had one sexually active teen say they did not like our message. If anything, we always get sexually active teens tell us thank you and that they did not know that abstinence was an option, even after they have had "comprehensive sex ed." Even our pre and post tests reveal that there is more movement towards abstinence among sexually active teens.

gharrs — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:20p.m.

"... they did not know that abstinence was an option ..."



That is hardly a believable story.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:32p.m.

Maybe I should restate that, they didn't know HOW to make abstinence a realistic option for themselves. You can't just tell them to wait and then not give them the skills they need to wait.

gharrs — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:48p.m.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I can agree that they need to be taught the skills.

Education, education, education is the best way.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 2:03p.m.

I tuned in late so I may have missed this, but if the message is "Don't do that," then thanks, we've heard that one. It failed when I was a teenager and doesn't have a great effectiveness now, or 1000 years ago.

If you're saying that kids are trying to figure out how they can NOT have sex, then you're not talking to any teen boys I ever knew... and a fair amount of teen girls, too. We KNEW how not to have sex; we did that 99.999% of the time. We had that one down. What we wanted was to HAVE sex. We didn't want to have children, we didn't want to get STDs, and we didn't want to sustain injuries... but we were normal human beings and we wanted sex. I never felt pressured about having sex as a teen and that kind of "Just say no" was not an issue. We all knew how to make abstinence a realistic option; we were stuck with it.

I knew what to do about this. I had a good collection of Playboys. It wasn't what I wanted.

JohnHedtke — Wed Sept. 3rd 12:54a.m.

Wow, that is surprising! People not knowing, they COULD NOT do something! I would hate to question the intelligence of an individual who doesn't realize they can decide not to do something---but you have to wonder.

What is not to like about stating the obvious? It would be hard to object to a discussion on: you can decide not to have sex.

scottmil — Tue Sept. 2nd 1:37p.m.

The problem I have with some of the current abstinence education and groups like yours is the deep value placed in chastity & virginity. While it's true that _celibacy_(i.e not having sex - EVER) NOT abstinence(you fail to mention cheating spouses, for which you have zero control over) will surely prevent you from getting pregnant or getting an STD, there is the fact that there are proven methods which greatly reduce these risks. There is a failure rate for contraceptives, but they are also a great success as well for human birth control & STD prevention. Also the fact is that even after marriage you still need to know how condoms, hormonal birth control or surgical contraceptive measures work. It seems as though this small percentile of failure rates is used as talking points to scare teens into not having sex. It can set sex up as a taboo & stigmatize/demoralize those who fail on their pledges to remain abstinent.

I've seen it first hand cause some people to become almost hateful of themselves for having sexual feelings and "letting down" those who have propped them up with the notion that abstinence is the only way. Otherwise that precious gift(as stated on your website) is gone or you're a dirty person. This also makes things complicated when rape is involved, by placing such high value on virginity and chastity, it does not make rape victims lives easier to live with this stigma that they are "lesser" than their peers to the actions of someone they had no control over. While this may not be your goal, your main talking points for WHY someone should be abstinent amount to "Something terrible could happen(STD, unwanted pregnancy)" OR "You'll be better than other people for saving yourself".

While I do think some of your focus on relationship building and being respectful to one another is very useful, the main objective to promote abstinence and only abstinence is flawed. You yourself stated on the show you do not like it when people "upstage" abstinence with inclusion on things like proper condom usage or discussions on birth control in the same presentation. This almost sounds like a fear that the curtains are going to be pulled back and teens may become more interested in how to properly use a condom, how birth control works or even learn about abortions - all of which should be discussed, not necessarily promoted - but at least discussed. It would also be nice to hear how gay & lesbian relationships fit in with the abstinence only education plan or those who don't feel marriage is in their life plan. Perhaps you're petitioning for gay marriage so that they could fit into your abstinence education plan? Somehow I doubt this. Fitting yourself into a niche of abstinence only education really feels as though there is a hidden moral or religious agenda underlying the philosophy of the group, not the well being of the persons being taught.

Ultimately it is the choice of the person what they do with their body. Making sure they are aware of ALL options(abstinence, condoms, BC, etc..) is important if your true desire is to educate and inform. By people trying to parley or only play one side of the fence feels like feeding agendas and may not be the healthiest solution.

Klinky — Tue Sept. 2nd 8:20p.m.

This is the best post I have seen on TOL and thanks for writing it!

Tom D Ford — Wed Sept. 3rd 1:45a.m.

I remember hearing Sarah Palin railing against gays in the military, I remember noting that as a representative in Alaska, she was happy to open up drilling in a National Wildlife Refuge (designed to be protected); I also noted after learning that she may be a VEEP pick that she was vehemently against abortion and sex education.

I feel badly for her daughter that she never had the information to make an independent decision. I would feel badly for the youth of this country if Sarah Palin?s staunch policies on sex were introduced fully in our education system. Politics is often about compromise, and Sarah Palin?s views are immovable, thus ineffective politically.

I also find the comment by KLinky very illuminating: "Also abstinence proponents are also neglecting people who may not have plans to get married or who can't, such as homosexuals" I never thought of that...Though with Sarah Palin's overt judgment of homosexuality, I have a feeling it wouldn't matter to her...I think she's more likely to support "pray out the gay" education.

amy-OR — Tue Sept. 2nd 2:07p.m.

This is Jessica Bogli and I spoke on today's program. I just wanted to add that Abstinence Only programs have been proven ineffective for behavior change. Some studies around the country show change in intent, but not attitudes and behavior. I strongly encourage parents and community members to advocate to their school districts to use research-based sexuality curriculum, which DOES indeed have abstinence components and many have family and community components as well.

Jessicabgoli — Tue Sept. 2nd 2:16p.m.

I attended an "About Your Sexuality" program through my local Unitarian church when I was a teen. Chicks and bunnies and kittens were covered for the kids up to about 8 or 9, the mechanics of human sexuality for kids up to 13, and then a class about feelings and interactions and so on for the kids 14 and up. I learned an awful lot about myself, other boys, and about girls. Being able to talk to people and find out that they were having exactly the same feelings and urges as I was really relieved me. I wasn't alone, I wasn't strange, I was having the same desires that all the other teens I knew were also having. And that helped me more than anything.

I recommend the course to everyone with teenage children.

JohnHedtke — Wed Sept. 3rd 1:01a.m.

Republicans are saying that since Palin is in charge of the Alaska State National Guard as governor, she has ?military? experience?


And I suppose Cheney can claim the same since he?s a draft dodger?


Who is going to tell the Republicans what actual ?Military? experience is? It sure as hell isn?t just pretty words and titles.

Tom D Ford — Tue Sept. 2nd 2:18p.m.

This is Jessica Bogli again...
Some of you have asked for resources. Programs that 'work'. I suggest you start at the Department of Education's website:
http://www.ode.state.or.us/search/page/?id=1773

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Division of Adolescent School Health has some amazing resources as well as research-based criteria:
http://www.cdc.gov/healthyYouth/sexualbehaviors/index.htm

I will attach a list that contains K-12 health education curricula, including sexual health curricula and which districts we know are using what. Please note that teachers should be using research-based curricula and that textbooks aren't research-based.

Jessicabgoli — Tue Sept. 2nd 2:53p.m.

Emily, Dave, and crew:

Good show, very balanced, especially considering the flammable nature of the topic and some of the stuff posted. Well done.

Jessica and Gina:

I note that both of you came online and participated here. Thanks, your time and input is appreciated.

tpohara — Tue Sept. 2nd 10:26p.m.

I think it's unbelievably hypocritical of Bob Avery to say "How can a 19-yo get to be that age without having an understanding of basic biology?" and then witter on about how he supports abstinence-only education. Bob: it's because of people like you promoting an unrealistic world view and skewed information that teens DON'T get the information they need. But I guess that's not your problem, eh?

We've seen abstinence-only education tried for 2000 years now. Until the last 70 years, there were much greater threats for what would happen: social ostracization, incurable STDs, burning in Hell. And even with the promise of eternal damnation, people still had sex. I think we can safely say from 2000 years of data that abstinence-only education is a Failed Experiment.

JohnHedtke — Wed Sept. 3rd 12:41a.m.

Hear, hear!

Tom D Ford — Wed Sept. 3rd 1:51a.m.

Comments are now closed.