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Homeless Man Shot to Death by Portland Police
A homeless man was shot to death by a Portland Police officer on Monday afternoon. Now the details are starting to come out and the community is reacting to what is now the second shooting by Portland Police this year.
Here's what we know right now: Portland Police were called when a transient man was harassing and threatening people at Hoyt Arboretum in Washington Park. When the officer arrived the man came out of the bathroom with a significant amount of blood on him and with self-inflicted cuts on his neck. The state medical examiner says this suggests he may have been trying to kill himself.
He came out of the bathroom holding a knife, which Chief Rosie Sizer described at a press conference as a razor-like knife similar to an X-Acto knife with a six-inch handle. Sizer said that the police officer, Jason Walters, retreated and asked him to drop the knife. And she said that when the man continued to advance, and didn't drop the knife, Walters shot him four times. The man bled to death at the scene. [Note: this paragraph has been edited to reflect this comment by Jrenaud.]
What's your reaction to this story? Is it similar, or different, from the Aaron Campbell shooting? Are you a regular at Hoyt Arboretum? How will this change the way you view the park? What do you want the police to do now?
Update March 24, 8:34 a.m.: The Multnomah County medical examiner has identified the man who died as Jack Dale Collins. He was 58. Last year he was arrested by Portland Police for what they describe as an unlawful act in a downtown park. His estranged family in Texas have been notified.
GUESTS:
- Karen Gunson: Oregon State Medical Examiner
- Scott Westerman: President of the Portland Police Association
- April Baer: Reporter for OPB News
- Chris O'Connor: Board member of the Mental Health Association of Portland and a local attorney
Tagged as: homeless · police · shooting
Photo credit: Multnomah County Jail
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"I have been in many, too many, situations where I believed my life may possibly, or even assuredly, be at risk from encounters with aggressive and potentially dangerous people; and I haven’t had to kill any of them yet."
Can you give us a sense for the kinds of situations you're talking about?
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When a person is moving quickly, even an A+ certified sniper marksman would have trouble nicking an arm or leg. That stuff happens on TV as when Matt Dillon shots the gun out of the hand of the masked bad man. It doesn't happen in real life because it can't. Police are trained to aim for the target a forward-moving assailant presents, and that's the trunk, not the flailing or displacing limbs of someone coming at you.
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95 year old woman strapped to a wheelchair is allowed to drive. Motorists kill more humans and non-humans than all the police bullets in the world combined..What is unacceptable is the theory that humans are great. They are not. Humans, like James 10, are inbred whack jobs. The problem with police is that they are not killing enough. Inbred retards are not stuffed animals, they are more dangerous than rabid wolves. The population of ignorant whack jobs should be culled for the greater good.
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An exacto knife has a blade with a cutting edge about 3/4s of an inch long. If the cop was wearing the usual suit of armor, and trained in all the unarmed combat techniques, was a hulking steroid stoked "peace officer" shooting this man was nothing short of murder. He could have clubbed the guy, tased him or just approached near enough to have taken the knife from him. The cops do usually have a pair of gloves lined with knife proof kelvar. The decision to use deadly force in this case is just another instance that demonstrates the fact that America is a police state.
This crazed man offered a degree of real threat to the cop's life of about 5%. I think most cops today are scared half to death all the time. But most Americans are getting used to bad Govt along with official brutality. Here and abroad.
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An exacto knife has a cutting edge less than an inch long and if used as a dagger, could not penetrate more than an inch. Cops in most places carry a pair of Kelvar lined gloves that are proof against knife cuts. If they aren't issued for cases like this, then why are they supplied? And the cop's armor? Why are they wearing it? Why do they lift weights? Why are they all over 200 lbs if all they have to do is pull a trigger? I think your Portland cops are scared to death all the time. If they are this frightened, they should be selling toys at WalMart.
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I can't believe that this is standard procedure. The Portland police must have knives drawn on them pretty regularly--their policy can't be to shoot to kill in response. After all, knives are notorious for being much more difficult to kill with than other weapons, such as a guns. Why shoot a person brandishing a knife--and four times, no less? Why not aim for a leg or the arm holding the knife? This would stop the knife-weilder without taking his or her life.
What a sad story--this person was crying out for help (considering the signs of a possible suicide) and the representative of the state just helped him finish off the job. That's not the right response.
Why is loving-kindness not the first response?
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Actually, knives pulled on cops doesn't happen much in real life. You watch too much television, I think.
And where do you get your information that knives are notorious for being much more difficult to kill? A knife can slice through a vest like butter.
I tire of the question as to why not shoot for an arm or leg. THIS IS NOT TELEVISION!!!!
Loving-kindness probably isn't a good first response if a dude with a knife is approaching you...
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And I bet you would have been the first person to walk right up to this guy and give him a hug and kiss right?
What do you expect to happen when you bust out of a door and charge at a cop with a knife in your hand blood all over your face?
Give me a break. As Curt said, I think you watch too much television. And your knife theory... are you serious?
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Inbred whack jobs are not stuffed toys. You can not hold them up for a hug and then put them on the shelf when you tire of their stench. Killing a human should be about the same as killing a rabid pitbull. Anyone who worships human life above others, should be seriously rethinking their values.
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Yesterday before sunrise I came down my driveway to find a homeless man rummaging through my garbage can. When he saw me, he began speaking in a slurred incoherent manner. He was clearly someone with "mental health issues." Had he run at me, I would have reserved the right to run away if I could, or struggle with him to defend myself if I had to. There is no requirement that I let him touch me or harm me just because he's some sad sack high on stuff.
That said, I was not a policeman charged with protecting others.
Based on the accounts I am hearing, the homeless man in the Arboretum had menaced others and was running at the policeman with a knife in his hand.
In such a heightened moment, there is no time to call in psychologists to assess the danger to the cop over and against the civil rights of the attacker and the cop is not required to be sliced up in order to protect the life of an assailant who may actually be crazed enough to do the cop harm.
I heard someone yesterday on OPB claim that this episode should have been dealt with in a more democratic and peace loving manner. I do wonder, if someone jumped his wife on a dark street, would he call his friends and discuss what to do next or would he dial 911 and shout "Help!"
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"The police officer, Jason Walters, retreated and asked him to drop the knife. When the man continued to advance, and didn't drop the knife..."
Who gave you this information? The shooter, the police union and the police bureau, all heavily invested in the notion of being right and "within policy".
Please don't post police press releases and call it journalism. One or the other.
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Thanks for catching this, and our apologies. I've changed the post.
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I believe that there were at least two witness' that heard the officer say "Drop the knife" and "Get down!"
Please.
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What does the release of Grand Jury transcripts do if no one accepts responsibility much less gets held accountable?
If a civilian had fired the fatal shots, he would have been taken into custody immediately and read his Miranda rights. Why is this not an appropriate procedure when dealing witha police officer involved in a shooting?
How do unarmed police in other countries manage to cope successfully with similar situations to the one that occurred Monday at Hoyt Arboretum yet sustain far fewer injuries and deaths to both civilians and cops than the Portland Police Association claims happen here?
Oregon law does not require police to carry firearms (except at Portland International Airport, where it is required by international treaties and federal law). What would happen if we did not allow cops to routinely carry firearms, but rather made it necessary for them to retrieve them from a locked compartment in their patrol vehicles with supervisor approval (a sort of two-key system)?
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If a citizen used force, even deadly force, to defend himself I doubt very much he'd be taken into custody immediately. Give me an example of this please.
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Sure David, two occasions when I was a paid call firefighter in San Bernardino County; the first time, called to a residence of a mentally disturbed woman, she pulled a knife from a kitchen drawer and tried to stab me, I moved, grabbed her wrist and disarmed her. She was hauled away. The second time was after our medics brought a violent disturbed man to the hospital, he pulled a knife ( which someone neglected to check for) and sat up from the gurney, I stepped sideways, grabbed his arm, and we both ended up on the floor. The other two medics jump in and took the knife away. I was in a grocery store parking lot and one of the employees ran out and grabbed a guy while he was getting in his car, he punched the employee as I ran over as he tried to start his car. I reached in the window and grabbed his wrist; the employee got him in a headlock, and drug him out of the car. Some other employees came out and took him away. The first employee said he had stolen something from the store. A few years ago, I was doing outreach for the homeless youth. I came across a fight between two young men beating up another youth, I ran over pushed one away and told the other that the cops were on their way. They both ran off. I have a few more “life threatening incidences”, but I’m running out of time. The point is, I have been trained to deal with aggression, and so have the police. Killing someone is the very last resort, not the first line of self defense! If they are not trained, they have no business being in that position. Again, unacceptable!!
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Suicide by Police Officer. The man appears to have wanted to end his life with the cuts. The wound that killed him was one of the very few times when the bullet wound would have killed him. If it was as easy to kill with gunshots as we see on TV there would be far fewer Veterans of Iraq/Afganistan and even Korea and Nam walking around.
The person I feel sorry for is the Policeman. He will remember this for the rest of his life. I hope they have him with a counselor now.
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I argee, when a police officer tells you to do, well anything, do it. You will not be shot.
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I empathize with some of this anger... however, I hope those who are outraged about this are NOT the same people who are outraged by the use of tazers. It seems whenever police use tazers there is similar outcry. We can't completely tie the hands of law enforcement. We need to allow some use of force and accept that not all situations will turn out great, regardless of what methods are used or not used.
I'm not necessarily saying this shooting was correct or justified... but I am saying, "please remember this when police use non-letal force instead of firearms."
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I noticed yesterday that Beaverton Police carry a Tasar device as standard personel equipment. Was a Tasar an option in this case?
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Option, yes. A good option, no.
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What are the police in portland doing? They're killing people. What would happen to a citizen of portland if they behaved as the portland PD does? It is time to take away the PDX PD's ability to use deadly force by a city-wide decree. Mayor Adams, City Council, it's time to take away to police department's right to murder our citizens. Never Again. NO MORE POLICE MURDERS!
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I will respectfuly argue for more Police Shootings. Motorists kill more people than all of Oregons' police officers combined. Police should shoot to kill any and all speeding motorists. A speeding car kills more people than poice bullets. Stop Motorist Murder.
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Drawing no conclusions as to how well or badly this situation was handled: In 1997, I attended the Portland Police Bureau's Citizens Police Academy, which was for any interested citizen. As police officers demonstrated how they handle threats, including people with guns and knives, we were told that often officers fear knives more than guns because a bad cut from a knife that slices a key blood vessel can cause an officer to bleed out before help arrives. I and others in the class were at least a little surprised at that information.
Dan Hortsch
North Portland
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How can your guest from the union defend a situation where he was not present? Please ask him. This behavior from the union where the officer is ALWAYS right no matter what cannot be condoned. I would accept if he came on and said the investigation is ongoing, etc and cannot comment but this immediate defense of officer actions is unbelivable.
Also, we all know law enforcement is taught to shoot to kill if lethal force is used. We know this is not because of concern of continued advancement, rather this is because then there is always only one side of the argument. The officers.
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No, cops are not taught to "shoot to kill." Cops are taught to shoot at the largest target. (That'd be the chest area.) If cops were taught to shoot to kill they'd be aiming for the head.
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Curt - so there are NO vital organs in the center mass of the "chest area"? And how many shots were fired? Enough to stop the subject, clearly. Reports say 4, all in the torso, and I believe the ME just confirmed that on this show.
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There are plenty of vital organs in the chest but that's not the reason for being the point of aim; the reason is because it presents the largest target. Period. If an officer has made the decision to fire then it's important that the round goes where it's intended rather than downrange into god-knows-what. To increase the chances of that happening? Aim for the largest part of the body.
In regards to four rounds being fired I never disputed that. Is that too many? Depends. Was one round enough to stop the threat? There are PLENTY of cases where a person has been shot multiple times and was still able to function. As a matter of fact, most people that are shot with handguns (if I recall) survive.
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I have friends who were working in the visitors center during the ordeal... they were the true first responders. It is my understanding that they are not able to comment or tell how serious or not this event was due to the grand jury trial that is set to occur. I wonder how does all this speculation of the events help our community right now?
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So, whatever happened to treating officers with respect? I'm retired military, and one of the basic concepts one learns is that "you should be respectful to people who carry firearms".
Having "stood the watch" and had to carry a firearm to "defend the United States, it's Constitution and Citizenry" I find my empathy falls with the police. It's important to defend the country and community, but is it really worth dying for? I don't think so any more.
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FredPDX, as I'm sure you know from your time in the service, respect is earned, not provided. As the state of affairs with the PDX PD stands right now, especially with how this current issue is being treated, I do not think the PD has earned my respect.
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Without wading into whether this incident of suicide by cop (MO) was right/wrong... if one is willing to use deadly force, then you aim for the center of body mass and don't stop pulling the trigger until the target is down... suggestions otherwise usually result in follow-up TOL discussions on how to protect <fill-in-the-blank>.
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Quick crucify the police you rely upon to prop up your failing society.
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Take a look at this actual incident from a police dash cam. It may help to inform opinions on both sides. http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2010/01/18/ignatius-piazza-stop-screaming-start-shooting/
At this point, I don't believe I have enough information to make an informed decision for myself, but for those people who suggest shooting in the leg or the arm--you need to realize what accuracy is reasonable from a standard police-issue firearm if one removes the human being from the equation. Placed in a machine rest it is not uncommon for the accuracy to vary several inches at 'shooting distances.' Adding the human being into the equation obviously varies this more as fine muscle control goes out the window in a stressful situation. Shooting accuracies shown on television are not realistic.
Tagar
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Consider the argument we just heard from the mental health specialist: a person who does not respond to the direct command of a police officer to drop a knife is, by definition, a person who is mentally ill? All manner of criminals with felonious intent to not respond to commands to drop their weapons. Does this automatically make them mentally ill and therefore give them a pass to attack the officer, at their whim?
Get real!
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Why are all of you ignoring the fact that what the poor dead guy was carrying was described as an Exacto knife!!! To also describe that as a deadly weapon is to strain the concept. Especially considering that the man he confronted was presumably sane, large, strong and armored and armed with every every sort of modern weapony. Whether or not most officers carry Kevlar lined gloves, that are knife proof should be addressed.
There is no excuse for shootings of this kind. The cop simply lost his head and murdered a poor, demented man that represented no true threat to the cop. It has become a common place crime in every big city. It is an attitude toward their work that has crept in to every PD and been allowed to flourish as a part of that culture.
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The willingness of people to jump to the conclusion that a police officer involved in a shooting could have handled things differently is unabashed hubris. And to assume that you would do it better is - well - nuts. Neither stances are helpful.
Would it make a difference if patrol officers were dispatched in pairs? Would taxpayers be willing to pay for this?
Grace
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If this were a rare occurance, as it once was, then maybe there is reason to assume it was handled correctly. However an Exacto knife is not a deadly weapon.
I have read numerous accounts of similar shootings and watched on reality TV enough instances where cops are shown being excessively violent toward people that offered no real threat to the officer, but were simply slow to show due deference, I know that attitude when I see it. Cops are totally out of control.
In case after case cops show themselves to be frightened and prone to hysteria when confronted by anything unusual...be it a cell phone in a hand, a book they can't see clearly or just someone who looks odd. If anything is remotely confusing at first glance out comes the pistol.
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It sounds like the critics all are more mentally prepared to make life or death calls in a split second while being amped on adrenaline then a person who has trained for the situation. I would like to see everyone who is complaining about the way incidents are handled become a police officer.
All I hear is a lot of criticism without genuine fixes.
Know the facts and make educated decisions.
Otherwise YOU are part of the problem, too.
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There is no excuse for this kind of a shooting. The man was derranged, homeless and obviously confused. What he had in his hand as he walked forward was a knife that can not be contrued as a deadly weapon, yet the cop KILLED THE MAN when other options were avaialble to him. Like simply backing off and observing the fellow for a few minutes. How about clearing the area? They tranquillize dangerous animals rather than shoot them don' t they? Surely a human being rates as much consideration.
If the cop was incapable of making that kind of judgment he ought not to carrying a gun and badge.
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I'm no part of any problem, pal. I'm 76, a former Marine, and never even received a traffic ticket in my life nor been spoken to by a cop. I've never been inside a court room. The suggestion that an opinion can be considered part of a problem of excssive violence in my country needs to be explained.
If you think the cop who took this man' s life, did the right thing, then YOU, chum, need the attitude adjustment of the kind you seem to favor. Cops watch too much TV, are callused and indifferent to the suffering that is becoming commonplace in this country.
If this hysterical cop couldn't figure out a better way of handling this obviously confused man than taking his life, the cop should be running a hamburger stand and NOT carrying a gun and badge and making life and death decisions.
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Choose:
Portland PD officer responding to a duty call.
Bloody guy with a knife approaching the officer close enough to cause lethal harm to the officer.
Simple Q: whose side are you on?
This is a terrible tragedy. A man died from the action of a peace officer using deadly force to protect himself. But you have to decide whose side you are on.
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Turkey...do you hoestly think that cop's life was in danger? Here is a guy weighing over 200 lbs carrying a club, a taser, a can of MACE and most like likely a pair of Kevlar gloves and body armor and trained in unarmed combat and the obviously ill and confused man was carrying an X-Acto knife..and the cop feared his life was in danger???? Sorry, that is plainly silly.
The cop was hysterical and IF he was too frightened to think better than this, he ought to be selling stuff at a super market, NOT carrying a weapon and the right to make life and death decisions over the citizenry.
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Having lived with a sibling with a mental problem, I can say that the police do not shoot enough people. My sister has terrorized her children for decades. My sister has beaten my mother for years. Individuals who have a mental problem should not be out in the general public. They are a threat to the safety of citizens. My sister should have been locked up and/or shot years ago. Shooting people is not a bad thing. People are not the pinnacle of evolution. Stop being so speciocentric. Start shooting more people for a better society.
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Your sister is obviously suffering from some pretty seriously messed brain chemistry. Maybe a hospital would be better than murdering her.
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Who knows?! I would like to think the police are at fault, because I generally hate them, but it is hard to read the minds of people. It is hard to know whether this is an innocent event, or a rightfully frightened officer, that is getting blown out of proportion, because of previous events. Or, is their a local police culture that is infected with a murderous streak?
We obviously have to judge these events on a case-by-case basis. I think in some ways we all want there to be some brutish, police, conspiracy to wage war against---and perhaps there is. But, we have to be sure there really is one, before we fire our own starting pistols.
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Listening in the car, I heard an officer relate that "once the taser camera is on and the taser is pointed at the suspect, the suspect calms down, and that is all the court sees."
Isn't that the goal of the police officer? To make the suspect compliant?
If the officer fires the taser at that point, I have to ask why. Did the officer not pull/aim the taser early enough (that is, at sufficient distance to be safe)? Or was he looking to punish the suspect (for the behavior not caught on camera)?
"Safe" and "sufficient distance" in this case include the officer's ability to react to the changed circumstance. It applies even more so to letal weapons than it does to non-lethal ones.
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What kind of city are we living in if I can't cover myself in blood and weild a knife in a public space without getting shot by police?
/sarcasm
To those calling this a "murder", I wonder what it would take for an officer to justify the use of lethal force.
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This was a human being with a name. How dare the Chief of Police lable this person, this human being, "a subject" ! Jack was not a "subject," like some word in a sentence. He was a man, with a story, a whole sad life story. Whatever all his various failings may have been in this life, at least give him the dignity of calling him by name: Jack. To depersonalize him is to continue a misbegotten righteousness that is callous, inhumane and self-serving. And when we loose our humanity....we loose our soul. There are clearly deep resentments and a frigthening sense of entitlement within the police bureau...all around, there is much healing to be done. Can our city do it?
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You're reading too much into that. I suspect that she was trying not to give a clue to who he was before his family was notified.
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When Sizer made the comment, the authorities didn't yet know Collins's identity.
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"Subject" is also a word used by old-school cops when writing reports. "Vehicle" for car, "dispatched" for sent...
Again, I wouldn't read too much into her usage of the word.
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From my perspective it seems that the Police here use deadly force in situations where alternatives could be used. Maybe I'm brainwashed by TV? Obviously contact can be dangerous, but a trained officer could certainly physically overpower most people without using lethal force. The situations I recall, the victim of the shooting was either not armed, or had a knife. In this situation an xacto blade. It's an xacto blade not an 8" blade! Is an officer run to a safe area to call for backup? Aren't officers trained to react rationally in a high stress situation? Are the Police trained to never show "weakness"? Seems like the most aggressive route is always the one police take.
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How about this: I'll hold an razor and you try to physically overpower me. I'm going to venture a guess that you won't take me up on this offer.
Keep in mind that most cops aren't constantly training in MMA (mixed martial arts) or are always in top physical conditioning. They are human just like you.
What you wonder is unrealistic and, yes, probably because you've been brainwashed by TV.
Go on a ridealong. Better yet, go on a couple.
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The Union officer made a good point early in the show. The man had blood on him. He was carrying a knife. What if the policeman had run back to his car and found that this particular homeless and possibly mentally disturbed person had left a body in that bathroom? It's quite possible to cut a throat with an exacto knife (I managed to nearly take off my little finger). After murdering someone the man is horrified and comes out of the bathroom and confronts the policeman.
The policeman had no idea if the guy was mentally disturbed to the point of being homocidal. He was certainly suicidal! I think I have a right to walk the parks in safety.
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I'm a little confused, here we are talking about a second shooting which seems to be justified, knife or gun means little if you are being threatened.
There have been hundreds of calls police have made this year which could of gone bad except for the training of the police.
When was the last time we had a march with people praising the police for being there for us. We seem to forget who we call when help is needed and rush to complain.
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If a taser is pull and doesn't work, the officer has to put the taser away and pull his gun. The extra time could be a life and death deference for the officer. It is a proven fact that a man with a knife can cover 30 feet and stab an officer several times BEFORE an officer can draw his gun.
BTW: Most bullet proof vests ARE NOT knife proof.
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Why did the officer use his gun first ? he could have defended himself with his nightstick ! ! !
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Because if it has come to a point where the officer felt he needed to defend himself then he's got these options:
Pepper. Works good on dogs but combative people can still fight through it. (Not saying he was combative but people can still function very well after being sprayed.)
TASER. Pretty high success rate but is it high enough if you're facing someone with an edged weapon? If you miss, forget about reloading it because he can be all over you by now.
Stick. Really not that effective which is why it's not used that much anymore and if it didn't work then, again, it's too late.
Firearm. The most effective, period. Remember, the officer perceived the man as a threat and that mad had an edged weapon and was bloody. Did he cut someone else already? Don't know. To be truly fair you have to only consider what information that officer had at that moment, not hours, days, months or years later.
I'll make the same offer to you as I made to someone else here: I'll hold an edged weapon and you can have an ASP (nightstick) and we'll see who comes out the winner.
BTW: PPB HAS had officers stabbed before.
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Hey Curt, I'll take you up on that offer. Give me combat training, body armor, gloves, a taser, an asp, a shotgun with beanbag rounds, a cruiser, and a radio with as many similarly armed and trained thugs as I deem necessary on the other end and I'm pretty sure I could disarm you and have you in cuffs, lickity split. Without murdering you.
Oh wait, my mistake, non-lethal force is only for 12-year-old girls not homeless men with boxcutters.
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Many years ago I taught the police science majors at a community college. Most of them resented having a woman teacher, disliked women, were racist and ethnically biased. Prejudice was rampant. I threw out the regular materials they were supposed to learn and began teaching multiculturalism.
Some came around but the rest continued to be like the obnoxious undereducated types you see in high school. They were definately unfit for police work in the barrios and black ghettos that were part of our city.
Mentally ill people do present another set of problems which we need to train our officers how to handle. COMPASSION is a commodity that is in short supply among many who do police work. Screaming at or threatening a mentally ill person in the midst of a crisis does not work.
If the officer who shot Jack Dale Collins had any type of training including going to the veterans groups that help those with PTSD he might have had an idea how to connect with the victim.
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What you forget is that this is not a clinical setting we're talking about; this took place at an outdoor restroom with a bloody man holding an edged weapon and, it appears, not willing to disarm. To top it off, the incident probably began and ended in seconds.
I'm all for compassion, I really am, but it would appear that the officer perceived the man as a threat. If someone was threatening you armed with an edged weapon would compassion be the first thing on your mind?
BTW, I'm not sure how many years ago you were referring to but I'd be shocked if it was recent. A lot of things were different many years ago that no longer (thank god) take place.
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Funny! Because many people in Portland do assume that vegan bike-riders are compassionate. And, they do use those stereotypes and assumptions all the time, when it suits them. Really, the question is: is there anything wrong with stereotypes? Because many use the stereotype that police are brutish, violent, monsters. So, why not the reverse 'vegan bike-rider' equals 'compassion?'
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The common thread amongst all these police 'problems' is that the people do not obey the police commands. It is not the responsibility of the police force to provide mental health counseling to these people. On most issues I am a 'whiney liberal' as one of the other commenters posted, but I'm not naive enough to believe that there aren't people out there who have no qualms about hurting me or my family. If you really feel passionate about helping these folks, then please go downtown or into one of the neighborhood parks I can no longer take my daughter to, and ask some of these 'innocents' to come live with you where you can provide the 'cure' for them through love and understanding. You would stop being a hypocrite, and the homeless problem would be solved. Given the number of folks filled with righteous indignation, I'm sure the streets and parks will be cleaned up in no time! yay
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Might want to look up the story of Peter Watts' encounter with the border guards at a crossing to Canada. Guards issued him orders - after beating him up - and then assaulted (maced) him for failing to immediately comply despite presenting no apparent threat.
I agree that the problem is that the people involved do not obey the police commands. I disagree, though, where you imply that the fact they were not obeyed does not reflect upon the officer involved.
The point being that the training of the officer involves getting people to obey orders. Anything that ensures that the person obeys is a valid subject. This includes training in how to issue the order, how to get the subject to pay attention to the order, in issuing orders that will be obeyed, and in recognizing when the subject will not comply regardless.
If "mental health counseling" gains the compliance of the subject, how can it not be appropriate?
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This is completely outrageous. Are our police officers not given any emotional or mental assessment upon joining the force? Reactive killing is not the appropriate way to respond to an endangered citizen. This is borderline sociopathic behavior. Of course it is frightening and disturbing to find someone in a chaotic state, but I want to trust that officers of the law have been assessed for their ability to respond to dangerous situations AND have been trained to deal with others mental disabilities and illnesses. As a pregnant woman this makes me fear the police state that my child is coming into. How many times does this have to happen until something real is done to affect change in our police system?
The gentleman who commented on the show that this type of behavior from a police officer is what "society expects" is mistaken. I am a part of this society and I expect those who are here to serve and protect are able to respond to dangerous situations appropriately with the least amount of harm possible.
This cannot continue.
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What's missing from this conversation is an examination of what we in Portland are doing vs what police bureaus in other cities are doing. How do the rates of fatal police shootings in Portland compare to other cities with similar demographics to Portland? This is in no way to imply that each and every individual fatal police shooting isn't something to investigate and be concerned about - it is. But we clearly aren't the first city who's police officers are interacting with citizens with mental illness, dealing with racial profiling, and "working" with the homeless...
Frankly, I'm horrified and angry about the fact that we keep focusing on the small details - specifics about each case, time, weapons, who said what, tazer politics, etc. - and completely ignoring the bigger picture. How are these cases all connected??? What kind of additional trainings to our police officers need to prevent them from feeling that lethal force is the right way 'handle' people in our community who are non-white, mentally ill, and/or homeless. The fact that the populations that the victims continually involved in these shootings by in large represent the most marginalized people in our community needs to be addressed.
This is an issue of power, this is an issue of ignorance, this is an issue of fear.
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It is a good exercise to compare incidents of use of lethal force with other departments. Some have less and some have more. SO what?
The issue is what happens at the point of contact and whether or not you will allow sworn peace officers to use deadly force WHEN JUSTIFIED. If your jurisdiction arms your street enforcement officers and expects them to respond wihtout quibble to all emergency calls as a matter of duty, then sooner or later one of them will face a situation where their judgement and training tells them to use deadly force. By all means, investigate the incidents formally and thoroughly. Even the investigators will need to make a judgement call and hopefully some of those second-guessing the street officer will have experience in similar situations.
No matter how close you look, though, there will be a point where you have to trust the people you handed guns to and gave the authority to answer your emergency calls. At some point they have control of the situation and you don't.
The outcome, like this one may be tragic and horrible, but don't blame the organizations of first responders who you expect to show up and face down the really rotten and broken parts of our society.
It is not the job of the PD to do social work or mental health counselling. If we as a society chop budgets and eliminate social programs that would otherwise address the issues of the marginalized people in our cities, we can't expect the stress on the system to somehow result in idealized all-purpose-all-talented street officers.
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These incidents are all different. Those who treat them as all the same lose all credibility. The police action in Washington Park incident was totally justified. As a citizen, I would not ask this officer to risk his life in the face of a knife wielding man.
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It's depressing how many of these responses seem to stem from kneejerk political correctness, and not one post I saw with compassion for the policeman. He will have to live with the fact that he killed someone for the rest of his life, and that so many in the community he protects reacted with mindless vitriol. This has nothing to do with whether the shooting was "justified," although it seems in current protocol, it was clear and clean.
As a former journalist at benign events with police presence, I have often wondered why the police seemed to have a chip on their shoulders when I certainly had no animus toward them and saw no threat at all. Perhaps it is because they face this sort of reaction?
We have gone through periods of "community policing" and I thought that was the best way, because it seemed to make their jobs easier and therefore, to provide us better, more efficient protection. I wonder why that is no longer mentioned?
Our society has chosen not to provide for mentally ill citizens, to leave them to the streets where they are killed one way or the other, every day. Mental hospitals are "too expensive," and we party on. Well, this is the price we pay, and we're all guilty. I'm so very sorry for the man who was shot, and for the policeman who shot him, and for the people who are doing their best at impossible jobs but are being villified for their efforts.
And I am sorry for our society. It is a terrible, sickening state of affairs. We are serving ourselves and the rest of humanity with depressing irresponsibility.
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Scott Westerman, I really hope and pray that you one day understand just how sick, evil and depraved your world view is when your repeated response to questions about one of your officers murdering someone is to blame the police chief for not adequately explaining to the community why it is ok for the police to murder people. You kept talking about the training the officers receive as if that is justification for taking a human life. It is not. Train your officers to not murder people.
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Much of the discussion on this thread and in the city over the last few days sheds light only on the preconceived notions of the commenters, rather than the actual incident under discussion.
There are justified and unjustified uses of force by the police, both here in Portland and elsewhere. It is truly chilling when the police, as the deputized wielders of deadly force on behalf of the citizens, use that force in a cavalier, vengeful or otherwise inappropriate manner. It is almost as chilling, however, when, with little or no care about the facts, people in the community excoriate a police officer.
The facts we know here are that a large man, wielding a knife and covered in blood, came at a police officer and ignored repeated orders to drop the knife. I acknowledge that there are many more details we do not know, but the facts we do know lead to the conclusion that this was a fully justified use of force.
The advocates of reform do not advance their important cause by stretching or ignoring the facts in order to induce outrage.
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well Jmac, it looks to me like you think the public are the ones that need training, not the cops! how about this:
Obedience to police officers no matter what , just cuz 101.
or how about this:
Proper Reaction to Police Commands Should You Become Mentally Ill.
or this...
Just like Combat: Homeless Vet Survival in Portland Oregon.
better yet:
Fear of Aids: How to Keep your Blood off of PoPo so He won't have to Shoot You From a Distance Instead of Touching You.
those would make good Public Totalitarian Indoctrination Compliance Certificate course titles i guess, eh? so maybe we should go at it from that route, to keep the odd portlander safe from the Cops with Gunz goon squad.
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Every time I hear about another poor soul in pain gunned down because they were carrying a craft knife or "looked as if they were going for a weapon," it makes me wonder. Other cities don't seem to have an abundance of cases similar to these. What makes this happen so often in Portland? Is it something in the training of the officers, or a larger population of disturbed individuals? I have a friend who shrugs and says "Oh, those trigger happy Portland cops just killed another one." That's a sad commentary, whether the situations match the perception or not.
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A quick perusal of ORS Chapter 161 leads me to believe that the officer was well within his rights to use lethal force.
Additionally, I believe a private citizen would be well within their rights to use deadly force against a person who charged them with a weapon in their hand that could be capable of causing death.
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If you weigh about 225 and are trained in the martial arts, wear an amored vest, possess Kevlar gloves, a club, MACE, and a pistol. You are sane, strong, and in your right mind (presumably) a homeless, obviously disorineted man carrying a small craft knife could not possibly be considered an imminent threat to the said cop. That is, unless he was Mr Chicken personified and scared witless by the shambling, mumbling man with an X-Acto knife.
There is simply no excuse. This is murder through incompetence and irrational fear.
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The dead guy was not quite in a state where he was going to charge anyone. An X-Acto knife is hardly a deadly weapon. A baseball bat, tire iron, pistol, a REAL knife can all be contrued as deadly weapons. On the other hand if one is able to get the hell out of the way, none of those need be deadly. It all depends on circumstances, and one's own defenses.
The cop could have fended off the dead guy with his club. Easily, unless the cop was a spaz or too scared to think straight. From the description of the wounds in the dead guy the cop sprewed rounds all over the place. Meaning he was either so frightened he couldnt shoot straight or the dead guy was more than 20 feet away from the cop. In the second case, there is no excuse that the cop was backed into a situation where he had no recourse but to use deadly force. After two rounds the cop could have walked up to the dead guy and with his club knocked the X-Acto knife from his hand.
The cop simply murdered the man.
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The problem I see is not with a policeman in a particular situation, but how police are trained in general. They are trained to offer security, both for "citizens" and themselves. But they are also trained to fire on any threats, or "bad guys". I am simplifying a great deal here, but I have seen a number of police at work in different situations with the homeless. The homeless are not treated as citizens. As a pastor whose congregation is homeless, I have had a police officer tell me, "We don't care about these people, we just want to make sure that you and your staff are safe."
Thus, some people are expendable. Police officers aren't, because they "contribute." But the homeless and the mentally ill are. So if it comes down to an officer dealing with fear or with killing a homeless man, there is no option. The homeless man is expendable and there is a slight risk to the officer, therefore the homeless man must be shot four times.
They need to train officers to not fear such situations, but to be ready for them. They need to be trained to treat all people with respect, even if they don't understand what they are doing. They need to be trained to be flexible.
I could have gotten the knife off of that man without anyone being hurt, in all probability. The officer perhaps couldn't have, certainly not with him shouting at him. The only difference is our training and experience. If the officer had different training, perhaps another citizen could still be alive.
Steve Kimes, pastor of Anawim Christian Community
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" Suicide by Cop "
cops like to use their guns and not their brains.
Its easier...
You could be coming at them bare butt naked with a hard-on , and they would still draw their guns.
Its all they know...
So if your a homeless person ,or a vet , or you just wanna kill yourself.
call a cop . they'll help.
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At this point, I don't believe I have enough information to make an informed decision for wholesale jewelry, but for those people who suggest shooting in the leg or the arm--you need to realize what accuracy is reasonable from a standard police-issue firearm if wholesale fashion jewelry removes the human being from the equation.
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Comments are now closed.
This is unacceptable! There is no logical reason for murdering yet another citizen, no matter how scared you are. If you are that frightened of the last several people you have murdered, you neither have the character or the moral judgment to be a police officer. I have been in many, too many, situations where I believed my life may possibly, or even assuredly, be at risk from encounters with aggressive and potentially dangerous people; and I haven’t had to kill any of them yet. I have used my brains or my brawn to overcome that danger. If you think that shooting everyone your afraid of is the answer, then the only people that will be safe from you are 95 year old women handcuffed to their wheelchairs.
I will not tolerate, nor allow any further murder by our Portland area police. This will stop now, this is not a question!