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There have been a number of interesting (and well-attended) hearings in the Capitol this week. On Monday, the House Rules Committee heard testimony on the subject of sobriety checkpoints. The last time Oregon police officers randomly stopped drivers to check their sobriety was 1982. That's when the ACLU of Oregon brought a lawsuit against Lane County. The case was eventually decided in the Oregon Supreme Court, which found sobriety checkpoints to be unconstitutional. In order to bring back the checkpoints, lawmakers would need to pass a Joint Resolution that would put the issue before voters in 2012. This issue has been raised many times, most recently in the 2010 special session, but has yet to pass out of committee.
A hearing on another high profile issue took place on Tuesday. Students, administrators, University of Oregon's president and others traveled to Salem to discuss two proposals that would affect the U of O. Senate Bill 559 would allow the university to be an independent public university with its own governing board. (All public universities in the state are currently governed by the State Board of Higher Education.) Senate Joint Resolution 20 would put a constitutional amendment before voters in 2012, asking them to decide whether or not universities could use bond money to fund their endowments. These complex proposals are part of a larger effort to restructure Oregon's higher education system. The University of Oregon proposal has met with a mixed response from legislators even before the session got underway.
The current tuition bill is similar to the others that have been introduced in previous sessions with one major difference: a direct appeal to the Supreme Court. This means that any legal challenge to the law (if it becomes a law) would go directly to the state Supreme Court without passing go, collecting $200 or working its way through the lower courts. While the tuition bill enjoys bipartisan support, it's unclear if it has the votes to pass both chambers this time around.
We'll also continue our new Capital People feature, in which we meet interesting people who work in the Capitol building but are not elected officials. This time around it'll be Andre Rogers, who has worked in three different jobs at the Capitol over the last 11 years. He's currently a public service representative and he says his favorite part of the job is leading tours for school children who visit the Capitol.
Have you ever been on a tour of the Capitol building? What would you like to know about the home of state government?
Do you have experience with Oregon's online school system? Would the tuition equity bill affect you? What legislation is most important to you right now?
GUESTS:
- Chris Lehman: Reporter for OPB News
- David Nelson: Republican Oregon state senator from district 29
- Jim Ludwick: Communications director for Oregonians for Immigration Reform
- Matt Wingard: Republican Oregon state representative from district 49, co-chair of the House Education Committtee and public relations consultant for Oregon Connections Academy
- Andre Rogers: Public service representative at the Oregon State Capitol
Photo credit: Julie Sabatier
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First one set of animals, then the other, Tom! Hehehe!
Of course, an alternate title for this edition could have been:
Miss Harris Goes to Salem.
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Penny
As In "Mr Smith Goes to Washington", starring Jimmy Stewart and Jean Arthur?
What a great movie.
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Exactly, Tom!!!
(I knew there had to be another fan of the classics in here, somewhere!)
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Penny
I have been watching Turner Classic Movies, TCM, for a few years and it is amazing to me how many movies were first done in the early years and are still the best versions. The 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s put out some all time classics.
And those early silent actors were so well versed in conveying emotions and portraying the story without words that it is just astounding.
And remember that big hoo haw about the wirework in "Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon"? Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin did wirework way back when. And I bet that stage actors did wirework long before movies were invented.
Mankind the storyteller.
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Too cool, Tom...I would watch TCM as well, if I could afford ComCrap.
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penny
DishNet here, but it is too expensive also and I am about to quit them.
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Heh, heh, "Don't feed the Congress Critters!"
And "Don't let Corporations feed the Congress Critters!"
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Penny - You can call me Emily! :-)
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Sure, Emily, but that wouldn't have worked as well.
"Emily Goes to Salem" doesn't quite have the same ring as "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington," or "Miss Harris Goes to Salem."
(Or even "Mr. Brown Goes to Sacramento," for our neighbours to the south.)
;-)
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"Mrs.'Arris goes to Paris"
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ASK THEM ABOUT TERM LIMITIS .. ESPECIALLY THAT PROFESSIONAL POLITICIAN PETER COURTNEY >. HE HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING BUT BE AN ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE>>WE NEED A CITIZEN LEGESLATURE NOT ONE MADE UP OF PROFESSIONAL POLITICANS
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We already have term limits; they're called elections. If the voters didn't want that person in office, they wouldn't have (re)elected them. It's wrong for you to take away voter's ability to choose ANY qualified candidate for office. All term limits shoud be abolished.
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However, Bluewater, if we eliminate ALL term limits (including the 22nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution), then we run the risk of an Imperial Presidency. Can you imagine the Cheney/Bush Administration of declaring a state of emergency due to the two (ill-advised) wars they started? I'd rather not -- we might find ourselves in the same situation as Egypt was in during the past month. There has never been a transition of power in the United States during a war, except when the sitting President died in office. (See: FDR, 1945)
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I THINK WITHOUT TERM LIMITS PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS HAVE A PROCLIVITY TO BUILD UP A POWER BASE OF SPECIAL INTERESTS, THIS LIMITS TRUE REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS LIKE PETER COURTNEY AND MANY OTHERS .. ESPECIALLY IN COUNTY GOVERNMENT BECOME TOO POWERFUL, GAIN TOO MUCH IN CAMPAIGN FUNDING FROM THE POWERS THAT BE. TERM LIMITS BENIFIT THE PEOPLE AND NOT THE PROFESSIONAL CORRUPT POLITICIANS.
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Really, DFUND? He's done nothing? Not even practice law, or teach at Western Oregon University? Maybe you would like to see what I found at Wikipedia (admittedly, an imperfect source).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Courtney
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Penny
We are currently living in the US under a "State of Emergency" that Bush/Cheney created by Declaring War against Afghanistan and Iraq. Our Constitution has special "War Powers" that are different from our normal peacetime Constitution. They give the President extra powers that he normally would not have.
That was part of Cheneys' creation of "The Unitary Executive", in which the President essentially rules (not governs) by Executive Orders, often secret, and often ignoring the will of our legislative and Judicial Branches. Normally the President only has the Power to Execute the laws that the legislature tells him to.
So the sooner Obama ends the two current wars, the sooner we can get back out from under our "State of Emergency" and into peacetime Presidential powers.
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I have a few suggestions.
Budget balancing:
Tax increases - increase the cigarette tax, legalize marijuana.
Spending cuts - repeal all mandatory minimum sentences and abolish the state death penalty.
Also bonus points for abolishing the kicker. We’re the only state with such a stupid policy that bans government surpluses!
Economy:
Let’s create jobs in the state and reduce our unemployment rate by expanding our national and international exports. That strategy is working great for Germany and China. We should go further than the President’s national goal (doubling exports in 5 years) by tripling Oregon’s exports over the next 6 years. Let’s expand our exports so we can sell Oregon products (computer equipment, christmas trees, hazelnuts, etc) all over the world!
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I would support eliminating the kicker if Income Tax rates for individuals (as opposed to corporations) are lowered. If this is not "do-able," then perhaps we can get the Corporate Kicker done away with.
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Legalizing drugs in THIS country??? Look what the Big Mac and the 16 ounze Big Gulp did for nation's hoggish eaters. About one quarter of our youth are too fat to serve in the military. Boobus americanus is so self indulgent, indisciplined, and intellectually trashed by the popular culture- allowing him unfettered acces to all the weed he wants would sound the death knell for what is left of the economy.
Among the Andian Indians of Colombia, the home brewing of chicha (corn based beer) was using up so much of their small holders' corn crops the farmers family and himself were starving so papa could get buzzed on his chicha every afternoon. It became such a problem that the Colombian authorities had to impose draconian measures to force the Indians to stop using all their corn to make booze and save enough to feed their brats.
If we legalized pot in this country, what international corporation will invest in new plant in a nation where you can guarantee half the work force would be stoned every day? We aren't exactly renowned for the work discipline among the lower orders, as it is.
Talk about a death spiral!
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PROPERTY VALUES HAVE GONE DOWN BY AROUND 30% >. HAVE PROPERTY TAXES GONE DOWN TOO??
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Voters need to take the ballot measure system seriously and take responsibility for measures that are passed and not blame the legislature for problems they didn't cause (not to say I don't want the legislature to help fix them). Measure 5 really messed up local school funding and transferred much of its funding authority to the state. Measure 11 and last year's Measure 73 (both mandatory minimum sentences) have (and will suck more) funding away from education and health care.
Property taxes are another example. Measure 5 and Measure 50 are the reason property taxes are going up even as home values decline: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Property-Tax-Bills-mean-Questions-105918028.html
In many cases, through the initiative system, we voters have not only been blocking the fix of the problem, we were the ones who caused it in the first place.
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does deafened have some special need which forces him to write IN ALL CAPS
i want to know, because if so, i will not make fun of it in future
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lolo >. you are in violation of the guidelines
• Write with civility and respect. Attack arguments, not commenters.TOL STAFF SHOULD REMOVE YOUR COMMENT
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don't "YELL" when what you say is so often not all that sensible
and who are you you quote guidelines like scripture? certainly not without the sin you condemn
and :WHAT"S YER POINT DUDE?
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They start off running for city or county offices. If they succeed at that level, they have two choices. They may do favors for local business men and in return receive contributions and other in-kind services for their run at the next highest office. Or they can remain honest and simply do the public good and no favors. But, of course, they last one term.
However the more pliable (read corrupt) politician will be successful and run for higher office where they can do even more favors for bigger fish and in consideration earn MORE donations and other services to help them to Washington D.C.
Our system guarantees that ONLY the most corrupt politicians make it to the Golden Trough on Capital Hill. Then we scratch our heads and wonder WTF happened to America?
We would get more honest and intelligent Govt if we used a national lottery system to pick our representatives. Native born citizen, high school education, no drug use, no criminal record and not currently in an insane asylum.
That ought to do'r.
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We would get more honest and intelligent Govt if we used a national lottery system to pick our representatives. Native born citizen, high school education, no drug use, no criminal record and not currently in an insane asylum. -- Gereng — Sun Feb. 13th 11:53p.m.
I gotta say, Gereng, that sounds like a refreshingly new approach to the whole idea of serving one's people. It would definitely exclude such well-known individuals as Arnold Schwarzeneggar (born in Austria) John McCain (born in the Panama Canal Zone), and Madeleine Albright (born at an overseas embassy or consulate). (Apologies if I have mis-spelled any names.) Also, such famous people as Rush Limbaugh and Marion Barry would be out (both convicted drug users).
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Just curious -- would we extend that system down to the local level, all the way to school boards and city councils?
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I've heard of that idea of a LRS, Lottery Representational System, and it sounded pretty good.
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I would certain HOPE it would exclude the people you've mentioned. It would exclude some of my spawn. One born in Cairo another born in Tehran. Natural born US citizen meant at that time born in the USA to US citizens. That reading has since been shifted around a bit, in order to keep Obama on the throne..otherwise his Kenyan pappy would have excluded him.
As to where we applied the lottery concept, why not begin it at the city level? We may as well apply it where the rot starts! By the way, term limits would go along with the new procedure plus an easier method of recall, just in case the lottery winner proves as as great a yahoo or as greedy as the current crop.
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President Obama's mom was a U.S. Citizen when she gave birth in Hawaii, which was a state when he was born.
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and even had it still been a territory at the time, he would still be eligible (8 USC 1405)
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His place of birth was never in serious doubt. The real issue is his father's status as a Kenyan citizen and whether or not by Kenyan law his mother was considered Kenyan by having married a Kenyan. Or her status and Barry's when his moma married another Muslim foreigner, an Indonesian. There are true issues about his elgibility, but there is no serious question that Barry was born in Hawaii.
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Who cares if she was considered a Kenyan under Kenyan law, when she was still a U.S. Citizen, never having renounced her U.S. Citizenship? Certain countries allow dual citizenship, and U.S. Law recognizes dual citizenship (Elizabeth Taylor, for example). Whether young Barry lived in another country, which happened to be majority Muslim, or not has no bearing on his U.S. Citizenship as long as he was born in Hawaii, after 1959. So where is the question of his eligibility to the Office of President?
If we want to dispute whether someone was a Citizen of the United States, how about John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone? While it may have been treated as U.S. Territory during much of the 20th Century, it was still NOT part of the United States. Remember, even though Secretary of State is one of the offices in the line of succession to the Presidency, Madeleine Albright was ineligible due to being born in Prague Czechoslovakia (now the Czech Republic).
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G
i think the real point for you is holding to your opinion, malformed as it is and you have every intention of never changing it, no matter what - you can't even bring yourself to say it might be a grey zone that was never encountered before
so what's to discuss? let's bicker instead!??
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Can you ask the folks in Salem why the Oregon College Fund investment choices consistently fall short (http://www.oregoncollegesavings.com/performance/index.shtml) of the "Blended Index" funds that they are benchmarked against? Is this due to mgmt fees or mediocre investment strategy?
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Good question regarding Albright. Had it befallen us that she moved up toward the august position of president, her eligibility would have then been called into question.
But about Obama: 'Natural born' according to some interpretations means born to US citizens. Both of MCain's parents were US citizens. Only Barry's mom was a US citizen. Dad was a Kenyan. Two of my kids born abroad were immediately registered at the US Consulate and obtained US passports. They would be eligible. Both mom and dad being US citizens.
Obama's family have not helped him by continuing to insist to the press he was born in Mombasa. But in fact it is established that he was born in the USA.
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Madeleine Albright's (in)eligibility was already a known quantity when President Clinton appointed her to the Office of Secretary of State. There was never any question as to whether she would have been inaugurated or skipped over, had it ever become necessary to go that deep into the bullpen.
As regards Mr. Obama, the fact that his father was not a U.S. Citizen is not a consideration. It only takes one parent to confer citizenship, and under the current interpretation of the 14th Amendment, all it takes is being born within the United States.
And about Capt. McCain, even though both of his parents were U.S. Citizens, (in fact, both his grandfather and father eventually rose to 4-star Admiral in the U.S. Navy), he was still born outside the United States, in the Panama Canal Zone.
Finally, Gereng, your two kids born overseas and registered at the U.S. Consulate would not be eligible to hold the office of President (or Vice President, for that matter). Here is the full text of Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 5 of the U.S. Constitution: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a CItizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
Birth at a U.S. Consulate or Embassy does not count as "natural born," though they would be Citizens.
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It is the inrerpretation of the words 'natural born'. Certainly the Constitutional lawyers advising the GOP did not consider that to mean born inside the United States or its territories. An armed forces base anywhere in the world is governed by treaties of extra territoriality, like an embassy compound and the rules governing these are for most purposes those of the nation holding the base or embassy. McCain was born on a US base. Once again the interpretation of the 14rth amendment is whatevere the SC is going to determine at any given period.
As the Supremes are appointees and tend in their interpretations to favor the party that appointed and confirmed them it remains to be seen if my children are considered as 'natural born' for the purpose of gaining the presidency. As you have probably noticed the Constitution is much more "flexible" today than it was fifty yrs ago.
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they should all have to definitively prove their IQ is well above mine before they even get to enter the town
make all the jokes at my expense that you might want, but prove to us that would be a bad idea
opinion, especially with no fact to back it up, is not proof
try to separate the jokes from your proof, if only to avoid confusion
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An IQ requirement would have prevented Ronald "Amiable Dunce" Reagan from being the mythical hero President of the far right Conservative Republican Party, CRPs.
And I suspect that many more Conservative Republicans would not be in office, because they are not elected for their thinking skills, they are elected for their fear-mongering skills.
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not only repubs - there would be dems, indies, whigs, et c out too - but we simply cannot expect them, as representatives of us, to tackle problems which REQUIRE the ability to think clearly well beyond lunchtime, and in fact into the next generations -
this is not to say that everyone should not be represented, and fairly and compassionately, as living beings, but even the most charming wo/man with an IQ, as one measure, not well above the median, to be capable of that feat, is pretty unlikely, except in the most unusual and fortuitous of circumstances - and how often and for how long do we bask in unending afternoon sunshine
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I understand that the health care bill leaves room for each of the states to decide on whether to go to single payer in that state and I wonder if Oregon would benefit from doing that.
And I wonder about the Archimedes Movement that Kitzhaber started up, if that can be worked in.
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"Tuition equity"
Sen. Frank Morse changed his mind about that and I very much respect him for thinking it over and making that change. You don't often find me respecting a Conservative Republican but here is one instance where he shows a sense of social justice and deserves respect for that.
I believe that children ought not be punished for what wrongs their parents did.
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i think the children of illegal alien parents should be given the opportunity to take the education they have recieved from Oregon taxpayers and use it to improve their homeland, if they want to attend a public university .. they should return to their home country and follow the law to gain admitance to the institution of higher education which would them charge them out of state tuition.
we dont need to offer more incentives for people to enter the country illegally
for every one "student" who is eleibible for college there are probably atleast 10 illegals who are in gangs or in jail at tax payer expense
DEPORT EM ALL >> THEY NEED TO OBEY THE LAW
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American born kids in other states don't get in-state tuition in Oregon, why should illegals? Why does this one group get to break our laws?
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Yesterday I attended a hearing before the Oregon Legislature's House Judiciary Committee on several bills that are intended to gut Oregon's land-use laws.
Radical right-wing ideologues on that committee -- including a so-called "Democrat," Mike Schaufler, a self-serving contractor, are pushing for their adoption.
One of these abominations would require that if a citizen appealed a land-use decision to Oregon's Land Use Board of Appeals, and a money-grubbing developer prevailed, the poor schlub who dared object to a developer's land-raping would be forced to pay the winner's attorney fees. And these creeps often hire gangs of lawyers.
Another of these bills would limit who could take a land-use case to LUBA in the first place. This piece of legislative garbage would bar anyone who does not own land immediately adjacent to, or very near, the property at issue in the case case from having "standing" -- the right to appeal.
This would prevent many individuals and organizations who care about Oregon's land-use laws from using them to help preserve our state's quality of life.
During Tuesday's hearing, opponents of these bills -- including extremely articulate spokespeople for 1000 Friends of Oregon and the League of Women Voters -- vastly outnumbered the handful of backers of the proposed legislation who showed up. Yet the land-rapers and their shills were met with deference and favoritism.
It was shocking and dismaying to hear the lies and invective the greedheads' stooges on the committee heaped upon the dedicated citizen activists who work diligently as environmental watchdogs and allies of ordinary Oregonians whose only interest in opposing land-use abuses is preserving their own, their neighbors' and Oregon's liveability.
Please, EVERYONE: Do what you can to block this assault on Oregon's proudest achievement: our pioneering land-use laws. Write Governor Kitzhaber. Tell him that if any of these horrible bills is approved by the legislature, you want him to veto it. This attack on our state and all of us who love it must be blocked.
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Thanks for bringing this up. We won't get into it with the guests on today's show, but it sounds like it could make an interesting topic for a future "Live from Salem" show. (We'll be down here every other Thursday during the session.)
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We just concluded a long and intensive fundraiser for OPB. These occur 3 to 4 times a year.
Congress is voting to cut NPR funding TOMMORROW, Friday. If you do not want to see up to 10-12 monthly fundraising drives and program interruptions, spend a few minutes emailing your Congressman or Senator about the impiortance of NPR and its local affliitates.
www.house.gov
www.senate.gov
Look up your Represenatative by zip code. And your Senator by state. There is an email 'Contact Me' form for each member.
Otherwise be prepared to see a lot more fundraising, commercial breaks, paid programming and loss of your favorite NPR program. ....Click 'n Clack on unemployment.
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Instead of cutting programming, maybe OPB could cut staff. I never hear any discussion of wage and benefit packages for OPB employees during pledge drive. I would guess wages are the highest cost for OPB, not programs. Maybe TOL could do a show that highlights the 30 top earning employees of OPB and their wage/benefit packages. I think donors would find such a show very enlightening. How is every dollar spent at OPB?
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Consider rolling back some of the NPR wages, I read that Scott Simon is paid a bit more than US $560,000 per year.
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While we might all think that Measure 49 had resolved our land use problems and protected our farmland, the recent hearing on these land use bills (HB2181, 2182, & 2160) showed that those who would profit from destroying the environment and denying citizens their rights have not gone away. It is hard to believe that our elected representatives would choose to take the side of large corporations and make it even more difficult for neighbors and community members to protect themselves from noise, air and water pollution. We must be vigilant and watch out for these under the radar attempts to weaken our land use laws.
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Tuition Equity sounds great. There should be no distinction between in-state and out-of-state tuition. Educated people, whether they're citizens or not, are key to a successful future.
Would like tuition at Oregon's universities to be based on services universities provide. Tuition should cost $xxx/hour and be charged equally across all students. So, if it costs $Y billion / year to run Oregon State, then $Y billion / total # hours offered yields the tuition / hour rate. Oregon universities would be self regulating and refrain from abusing students with excessive tuition. Universities would be responsible for partnering with corporations and governements to graduate students with skills useful for a successful life. If foreign students take their U.S. skills and degrees back home, excellent. Major problem in the world: too much ignorance and fear; too little education, wisdom and compassion.
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I also like the idea of tuition equity, because that person is living in the state of Oregon, have been living here for awhile, has to be in the process of applying for citizenship, and paying taxes(or their parents). If all universities and colleges were given the same amount of money from federal sources and none from state taxes, then I would agree that there should be no difference between in and out of state tuition. That would still exclude foreign students since they have not been paying taxes that help fund the university or college.
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Our tax dollars are needed to educate American born kids first. Illegal aliens have no right to be in our country. Try going to any other country without proper documents and see how far you get. We must control our borders and stop rewarding those who break our laws.
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You can sign a petition is support of SB 536, The Bag Bill, at http://www.thepetitionsite.com//5/ban-the-bag-in-Oregon/
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The plastic bag ban is arbitrary and offensive, I will not buy another thing in Oregon if it passes. (Well except for food in restaurants.) This ban is essentially censorship.
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Why is it censorship? Because it is totally an inconsistent and arbitrary restriction on one use of plastic, while all the other uses are considered perfectly acceptable. I can buy a bulk box of Hefty plastic lawn bags and then be required to take them home in a paper bag from Target. Does this make any sense? It would be one thing to charge for plastic bags, which I would essentially support, but I will never support a ban on one particular use of plastic bags, because it makes some overzealous zealots feel better, or like they are doing a small, and laughable, part at changing things by restricting the rights of individuals with complete incongruity. Many people take plastic bags from purchases and reuse then or throw away trash in them. Plastic bags in many cases have a clear functional advantage, a paper bag is not always a practical or adequate substitute.
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to say plastic bags are the most ubiquitous things is barely exaggeration - there are simply BILLIONS of them blowing in the wind, washing down the rivers, strangling and indigestible to all sorts of forms of life other than infants and small children -and so forth -
many other plastics are bad enough - to ban these bag forms of plastic is no argument that other forms should not also be banned or regulated -AND plastic bags have shown up everywhere
- they offer some small conveniences, but we lived for at least 5-10,000 years with fiber/cloth bags, which decompose, eventually, and maybe around 150-200 years with paper bags, which decompose somewhat sooner if mistreated
- but to cling to plastic bags is small-minded and selfish if one looks around to see the havoc they wreak, compared to their actual and unique convenience - and they do not naturally break down - and they do not remain useful for very long at all, although while they are useful they are very useful - exactly as cloth and paper bags, which do not present the same problems of persistence and toxicity as do plastic - it is even worse to burn plastics than to burn wood fiber and have you ever burned cotton? but those fumes are not so toxic as plastic
to cry "censorship" weakens the term and the argument for two reason at least -
1] what censorship does more naturally apply to should not be watered down; because that makes an easier argument then to censor something/anything later, saying it's just like plastic bags; rather than the more difficult argument against speech, art, expression, literature
2] yes ... i've forgotten - but, otherwise - it abuses the language and this is what those who 'would take the language as our power from us' would do - we may abuse it ourselves, and at our peril, and the effect is not the same, although bad enough
there is so little principle in small, small things, especially when such large questions loom so close by
nothing personal - but one MUST think very carefully before one conflates or confounds reasons to get one's own way
i keep thinking of some fig-leaf metaphor, but never mind, i think i've been clear enough
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to say plastic bags are the most ubiquitous things is barely exaggeration - there are BILLIONS of them blowing in the wind, washing down rivers, strangling and indigestible to all sorts of forms of life other than infants and small children -etc -
many other plastics are bad enough - to ban these bags is no argument that other forms should not also be banned or regulated -AND plastic bags have shown up everywhere
- they offer some small conveniences, but we lived for at least 5-10,000 years with fiber/cloth bags, which decompose, eventually, and maybe around 150-200 years with paper bags, which decompose somewhat sooner if mistreated
- but to cling to plastic bags is small-minded and selfish if one looks around to see the havoc they wreak, compared to their actual and unique convenience - and they do not naturally break down - and they do not remain useful for very long at all, although while they are useful they are very useful - exactly as cloth and paper bags, which do not present the same problems of persistence and toxicity as do plastics - it is even worse to burn plastics than to burn wood fiber and have you ever burned cotton? but those fumes are not so toxic as plastic
and this says nothing about the manufacturing process, nor raw material
to cry "censorship" weakens the term and the argument for two reason at least -
1] what censorship does more naturally apply to should not be watered down; because that makes an easier argument then to censor something/anything later, saying it's just like plastic bags; rather than the more difficult argument against speech, art, expression, literature
2] yes-i've forgotten - but, otherwise - it abuses the language and this is what those who 'would take the language as our power from us' would do - we may abuse it ourselves, and at our peril, and the effect is not the same, although bad enough
please think -there is so little principle in small, small things, especially when such large questions loom so close by
nothing personal - but one MUST think very carefully before one conflates or confounds reasons to get one's own way
i keep thinking of some fig-leaf metaphor, but never mind, i think i've been clear enough
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lolo,
Who gets to decide what actual convenience is worth? If it is intravenous fluids contained in plastic then it is a convenience we should tolerate? But if it is an old woman carrying groceries home in the rain, then no plastic for her? Or if I want to protect my books from the rain, no plastic for me? No, I should just buy a Kindle.
Oh and here we are sitting on the Internet having these discussions. When really the prudent thing would be to not waste the resources on such useless, power using, activities. Oh, but, yes the moralizers can arbitrarily decide to take the plastic bags away, and then they can talk about it online, because they have decided it is an acceptable way to spend resources because it is for the alleged greater good. Perhaps, we should limit the lengths of these comments and the number of posts allowed to save resources. We should also give up all the wine drinking, because of the terrible waste of resources. Why not ban drinking alcohol entirely? Not just because of the waste of resources, but also because of the lives lost to drunk driving. Why not ban the printing of books entirely? All that paper? Oh, but that is a part the moralizers have decided is worth the waste, but if I want to get them home dry in plastic, then that is not acceptable.
Shocking, your request for the strict, literal and traditional use of words, apparently only when it suits you? I used ‘censorship’ specifically and intentionally because that is what it appears to be to me---trying to control the behaviour of the public on moral grounds. Your suggestion that the use of plastic bags is “small-minded and selfish” reinforces this claim.“We lived for at least 5-10,000 years with fiber/cloth bags”---and? How is this at all relevant? Should we turn off the lights too? Perhaps we can get rid of planes and medicine because we lived so long without them. I find it curious that people don’t see the inherent flaws in these sorts of relative judgements that attempt to control what others can and can’t do on a myopic level.
I can look around and see the havoc that plastic bags create and feel perfectly fine still using one when I need to. I don’t often use plastic bags, but I think they should be there when people need them. I often walk and don’t always have a bag with me to put purchases in, and I often find paper bags rip very easily and if they have handles on they rip off. Paper bags do not hold up in the rain, or in general. Perhaps next time when I am walking, I shall just go home and get my car so I can return to the store to purchase things so the paper doesn’t disintegrate in the rain.
What large questions loom close by that you assume I should care about? And apparently assume I don’t care about? And questions that somehow relate to this?
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P.S. lolo,
I think maybe you are partially right, or fully right, about my use of ‘censorship’. I think it is accurate to have used it, knowing the intent I had, but it was a sensational, dramatic and unnecessary choice. And, if I still wanted to use it, it would have been preferable to clearly explain the use in my initial comment.
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i am not sure why this double published - yes - i am an attention whore - but no - i do not want to come to that acclaim unfairly
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How does the legislation for illegal immigrants to get instate tuition prevent out of state students from declaring themselves illegal immigrants and gaining in state tuition? Any out of state student could state they are in the country illegally and then only have to pay in state tuition. What is the cost in terms of lost tuition costs to the state?
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Cost to the American taxpayer to educate illegal aliens is staggering. We should not be rewarding criminal behavior. Don't our Oregon legislators know that there's a recession? We have to educate American kids first. Law breakers like illegal aliens need to go back where they came from.
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staggering only if one trips over small things - you exaggerate
unfortunately a lot of american kids don't seem to want to become educated - i lay the blame for this at their parents feet - you of course obviously would be blameless
- where did you say your ancestors came from?
what's staggering is corporate welfare and corporate excess - now there's something that would floor you if you would take a look
let us know when you do
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Really important information! - you can sign up for email alerts from any legislative committee which holds hearings on issues which interest you. Then you will get hearing agendas ahead of time with the time and room in which the hearing will be held. Here is the great part - you can watch the hearing live online. [They are also archived.]
So, for example, I am interested in healthcare reform and received an alert telling me that development of a health insurance "exchange" was being discussed. I was able to watch the testimony of key players and also the legislators ask their questions/make comments on the testimony! This keeps me much better informed about what is happening and able to take action very effectively.
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The bottom line - this bill is not about immigration. We're talking about people who have lived in Oregon for 15-16 years. They are not receiving ANY advantage. They don't get special treatment in applying to school. They are ineligible for financial aid. None of these students are paying out-of-state tuition to attend our schools, because it is TOO EXPENSIVE.
This is not COSTING the state out-of-state tuition, it will bring in thousands and thousands of dollars in in-state tuition.
That's why OUS presidents like Wim Wiewel support the bill.
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Are you nuts? Illegals are a drain on our public schools, our social services and our society in general. They have broken our laws, why do you think they should be rewarded at the expense of the American taxpayers? Are you rich? There is a huge difference between out of state tuition and in state tuition. We would have to make up the difference. Kids from foreign countries attending college here legally pay a huge tuition, why should illegals from other countries get a break when they're not even supposed to be IN our country?
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BARB, barb,barb ...
if the schools were properly funded, and folks like some weren't pennywise and pound foolish (I'm not saying you're overweight) these supposed 'aliens' would not only be getting an education to become productive countrymen, citizens, and friends, they would also be educating our own insular youth about other countries and cultures, which would prove to be enormously helpful in the future when we as a nation find that we really need friends abroad because small minded folks (not like you) were running around calling everybody aliens and their kids fully expected that people in france had 10 legs, people in in-do-nee-zha had two faces and people in spain had god knows what, and so forth - it's a small world and it's not big enough for even one america as you imagine it should be - Now, if you took the time to read and understand a little, you would find that THE FOUNDERS (cross yourself twice and genuflect) weren't mean, awful and selfish people who wanted to rule the world and buy everybody off and call them aliens - no no no - that's the COR-POR-RAY-SHUNS
-AND THEY AREN'T MENTIONED ANYWHERE IN THE CON-STIT-TOO-SHUN
where did you say your ancestors were from again?
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Wow.
The woman on the line should rethink what "their country" really means.
If a person was brought here at 8 months old and lives in this country for 16 years, what country should they go back to?
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How about the country they were born in?
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BARB, barb,barb ...
what if everybody then, felt like you do now, when the people you are a descendant of, came over here, huh?
on second thought, you very well might not be here now, would you?
OR, let's say, for the sake of a moral argument - don't you think you owe it to the Native American tribes that you leave, now? You believe in morals, don't you? you certainly sound like a moral woman. Can you apply that same logic to yourself?
you are almost certainly not the descendant of the landed gentry, are you? So, quite likely your ancestors were dirt poor - possibly you worry the ALIENZ are going to do to you what someone, possibly your ancestors, way back when, did to the original inhabitants - why are your people so special they either have to kill off others or drive them into poverty and off the land, and so forth-that, to me, does not sound like a truly christian god - no, it does not - it sounds like a war god. Is this the example and education you want to leave for your children; hatred and strife - or maybe if we all suffer together, and help one another, we will be the stronger for it afterward?
I'm just asking because I'm trying to understand.
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I was born in Oregon and have been a taxpayer for almost 40 tears. I have been subsidizing the college system in this state for almost 40 years yet I couldn’t afford to send my two children to college but at the same time made too much for them to get any assistance whatsoever. I’m sick of subsidizing illegal immigrants, period! What we should do is make it illegal to hire them and aggressively enforce the law, they would leave on their own.
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You're not subsidizing anything. We're only talking about letting people PAY in-state tuition. This bill wouldn't give anyone anything. And if you're angry about funding our public schools, think about this - undocumented students are ineligible for financial aid. A U.S. citizen paying in-state tuition and getting the Oregon Opportunity Grant would cost taxpayers MORE!
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Perhaps if that quote illegal unquote young person knew she or he could go to an oregon university, she or he would be motivated to finish high school with good grades. since many mexican americans drop out of high school, would not we be improving the general level of education even if that student did not go to post secondary education?
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The devil is in Mexico? All immigrants are Mexican? Very fascinating comments from OFIR, who also believe that Santa Claus is violating US air space and working with Al Qaeda.
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Don't care where they come from, an illegal alien is an illegal alien. They're all breaking our laws. Why are we pandering to this group?
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Barb, barb, barb...
pandering? pandering?? you seem fond of that word
what we have done, rather, what the politicians are doing, is pandering to loud-mouthed know-nothings, not like you, who have the right to vote and misuse that privilege
obviously those people, not like you, have no education, and it is likely their kids, but not yours, will reject education too, because those people, not you, are their example - so what does it really matter if some Mexican kid, whose father picks tomatoes for a salad someone won't even eat 'cause they are too full of cheese, and whose mother cleans the laundromat where someone, not you, takes their clothes once every six months and the filters get clogged afterwards, what does it matter if this Mexican kid is in school and probably doing better than their kid, but not yours of course, who is sitting in the back of the class throwing spit wads
in all fairness, don't you think that if you can make all these assumptions and accusations, so can't we all?
inquiring minds want to know, Barb
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I find this absolutely asinine. I am an Oregon resident by Oregon laws. I vote here, I pay taxes here, I work here. I pay tuition out of state because I went to community college full time when I first moved here. If illegal residents get in state tuition, then why shouldn't I?
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We're talking about people who have lived in Oregon for AT LEAST three years. You can get in-state tuition if you live here for one year.
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@pdxstudent: That actually isn't true. You have to drop out of school and work full time for a year, then reapply to school to be considered for in-state tuition. The length of time you live here, or whether you own property or pay all your taxes, has no bearing on paying in-state tuition. I've been trying for 5-6 years now, and have failed each time. They hate allowing out of state students to cross over to being in-state.
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Wait wait wait...
Now they're trying to give the Internets some kind of handout with schools?
What about hardworking, ANALOG Oregonians who want to get in those schools but aren't from the Internets?
The Internets is an attack on our sovereignty!
Come on, OFIR, get in on this discussion!
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There was a time on line school saved our child and family. When our son was in a 'mandatory seat time school' he needed a Special Ed plan, thus lots of more costs to the tax player but of no benefit to our child.
On line school was great, we had a teacher guide who watched over his academic progress and he made far more progress on line than in the 'sit down' school with its erractic schedule.
Please school choice is great for children, for families, for society and the tax payer.
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Students of undocumented Oregon residents ARE residents. There is no denying that we are all better off if people who live here are educated. Students who graduate even with the highest grades still face a limbo of being unable to proceed to graduate school or a professional job. I know of one such student who excelled in college and wanted to go to medical school. These people arrived as children. The Federal process to provide citizenship, even for those who are now married to American citizens, requires them to go to Mexico for five years and then possibly get citizenship. Most of them would not be at home in Mexico or Central America since they were raised as Americans, their friends are Americans, etc.
The law is more stringent than current practice, but it is the right move. If someone has the intelligence and motivation to get an education, and is a resident of Oregon, we all benefit. That person will still be here whether educated or not and without education is more likely to try to earn a living from marginal and semi-legal activities, possibly even crime.
They do pay taxes. It was totally wrong that the Federal level move to legalize these grown children failed, as they remain in a limbo. Small moves on the part of states do eventually influence Federal law. It is time to stop punishing these people who are American in every way except for their documentation.
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It is time to start enforcing the laws on the books and stop pandering to a group of illegals who have no respect for our country. They came here by breaking our laws. They have no right to be here! They can already get a free 1-12 public education here, let them go back where they came from for college. Tired of legislators who put the "si se puede wants" of these folks over the rights of American taxpayers.
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What is one to think about the people here illegally problem? I personally don’t take immigration laws seriously at all, on any level, because they have no inherent value and are exclusionary and nationalistic. I feel they always deserve to be broken and are unethical. To me someone who breaks immigration laws is never a criminal in the real sense. But I also question whether these stopgap measures help, or do they simply enable a continuation of the lack of legislation to address the problem on the federal level?
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You must have never traveled to a foreign country. Try doing so without the proper documentation and see how far you get. We are the only country who's borders are wide open. It's a disgrace that our own governement doesn't protect us or enforce the law of the land.
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BARB,barb,barb...
you are one of the most poorly informed and loudest and persistent of critics today
where did you pick up all this misinformation? have you no shame? have you not a brain to think things out for yourself, have you never been anywhere other than as a tourist, if that? do all your friends think the same lies and you all simply repeat them to each other and reinforce this nonsense?
you are barking like a beaten dog with this foolishness, and you seem to think that by repeating it, it will become true - this is not like praying and you either get what you want or you forget about it -
you are astounding and you are wrong in every single accusation and exaggeration you make - you may believe you are right, but you simply are not. Get a life and go live it, then come back and talk when you have a variety of friends and experiences. is your life so impoverished that you have to blame and exaggerate a boogeyman for everything, and the wrong boogeyman at that?
STOP ALREADY
and so to continue - so, you want this country, a free country, to become a police state like too many other countries, so these ALIENZ will be swept aside
- well ask yourself one thing-
WHO ARE YOU GOING TO BLAME THEN?
- IT"LL JUST BE YOU AND YOUR "FRIENDZ"
-and i can guarantee you, you'll be at each others throats inside of five minutes
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barbtennent,
I have travelled to many foreign countries---in fact, less then a month ago, I returned from a trip to Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany and the Czech Republic. And many of the borders between these countries are wide open---as if that matters. For a country that doesn’t protect us or enforce the law of the land, as you claim, America seems to be doing quite well.
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Tuition Equity is needed if Oregon wants to stay competitive. We are already investing in their lives (K-12 education), just to have them priced out of a higher education. These students have no access to financial aid or students loan...and tuition equity would still not allow students to have access to these things. However, as out-of-state tuition is nearly 3X more expensive than in-state tuition, students cannot afford higher education at the out-of-state tuition.
Tuition Equity would capitalize on the investment we already made on these students. By giving them an opportunity to get an college education, they will be able to give more back to the state.
Also, addressing the comments by Dee when she called in, these students are already paying taxes and contributing to the state. The myth that undocumented people do not pay taxes is widely spread, and just that, a myth. Additionally, the more educated these students become, the more they are able to contribute to income tax to the state.
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How do they pay taxes without giving a Social Security number? How does an illegal alien get a Social Security number? Steal one?
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After having lived abroad almost contineously from 1954 to 1993 and lived, worked and travelled in more countries than I kept count on, I can say with some authority that Americans have reared and nurtured the greatest number of Know-Nothings on the planet..perhaps in the Galaxy.
Giving up the control of our national borders and THE RIGHT to defend our culture (such as it is) and language is without doubt as insane as using credit cards or repeatedly sending back to Washington the same war mongering crooks and morons who have detroyed the economy.
When I hear American citizens defend the "right" of hispanics from as far away as Brazil to enter our country illegally, take our jobs, break our laws and bribe politicians to compel us learn THEIR language, I can only marvel and wonder how any people can be this stupid and still be able to breathe and walk simultaneously.
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I live and go to school in a state that already has Tuition Equity (NM). Having received my undergraduate from a state school as an in-state student when TE was passed here, and now going back to graduate school here as an out of state student years later, I can tell you a few things that DIDN”T happen after it passed:
1) Citizens and documented immigrants were NOT displaced from their “spots” in the classroom. I was not affected as all as an undergraduate, neither was anyone I knew who was enrolled, nor did I ever see or hear of anything like that happening. As far as I know, documented students and citizens were NOT AFFECTED AT ALL by the law.
2) Out of state citizens that I know do not feel that they are being denied something that they are entitled to (I am now one of them, having spent last year living in Oregon). Very simply, if you have lived here continuously for 1 year as an out of state student before attending college, you receive in state tuition. Before TE, there was NOTHING undocumented students could do to receive the same rate as their peers.
3) Colleges and universities were not suddenly overburdened because of undocumented students. While out TE bill made it MORE affordable for undocumented student to attend college by charging them THE SAME amount as every other person who graduated from a NM high school, because citizenship or residency is required to receive any state or federal financial aid, many students still cannot afford to attend school.
4) There was not an increase in the number of immigrants in NM due to the new law. Figures for undocumented people coming to NM increased by roughly the same amount as they had years prior to the law being passed.
In short, as a citizen I was not affected by the law either as an in-state student when it passed or now as an out of state student. If I want to be considered an in-state student, I have a method to do that.
As a New Mexican, I do anticipate to be affected by the law in the future, because with a more educated workforce, our economy (which like Oregon is based around agriculture, small businesses and Intel) will be able to diversify and meet the needs of the 21st century. Further, the amount of income taxes paid by these students will increase as their educational attainment increases.
So calm down Oregon. The world will not end with the passage of TE. In fact, it will open up for some the best and brightest among you. To be honest, I am shocked that Oregon is behind NM on this front.
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part 1
this is only one argument of many, pro education and pro 'alien' -
this country benefits from the work of these people (so-called aliens) for numerous reasons and in many ways -
where would we be without some of their foods, their songs, their literature, their fashion, their friendliness, their color and verve, and yes, the challenge to appreciate the goodness in something/someone different?
to say nothing of the hard fact that they do work which we simply will it not to do ourselves -but this is not about taking advantage of an impied pseudo-fact
to deny the best education they or anyone are capable of absorbing, anyone here who has plans to stay, is to ask for a dumbed-down portion of our population - us, it's all of us -
our present national situation has little to do really with money -it has to do with some very stupid and ethically challenged people who have various powers -
for instance, those folks on wall street who dreamed up all those schemes were UNDER-EDUCATED! yet they were specialists? - their education lacked the time it takes to appreciate then develop the properties/qualities which ethics gives us, or which we derive from an acquaintance and an appreciation of ethics - however you might like to put it - education is where ethics develops -it’s not about sin and guilt and praying - it’s about learning to think and arrive at balanced conclusions on one’s own-
this is a very brief argument here -pick holes in this alone and you do yourself the greater disservice
every cut in education funding is, for a graphic example let’s say, like dropping, from a 10 foot height, a 250 pound weight on your toes, forgetting about it, then waking up in 20 years and wondering why you are crippled
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part 2
not everyone is capable of the same level of education, but we are all the better for it if each of us has worked for and achieved close to our maximum - rather than this laziness found in phrases like ‘i learned all i need to know in kindergarten’, or ‘my brat can beat up your honor student’
human life requires food, clothing, shelter
human dignity begins and ends with good education
if you want to live a completely undignified life with your fellow pigs in a trough rooting around and goring each other over slop, by all means, burn the universities, home school your children and inculcate in them the ignorance you’ve spent a lifetime accumulating
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lolo,
Why does it matter whether we benefit from ‘these people’? Are there any possible nationalities of immigrants we don’t benefit from? And would it matter if we didn’t benefit? Because theoretically it is possible we may not benefit from certain cultures or people coming into this country at all. Immigration might be the right thing to do, but it doesn’t mean anyone (of us) benefits from it. On the work level, we seem to only benefit from it because they are ‘illegal’---it is an employment of no choice---if they were ‘legal’ how long would the relationship and benefits last?
Some may say if education is so important, and so many Americans are already receiving an inadequate education then how can we possibly have the funds to educate 'illegal' others. That the limited resources we have, would be better used, educating the people who are here legally to their ‘maximum’ potential as you suggest. I am not suggesting I agree with this, but it seems like it might be a fairly strong position.
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i can conceive of no group who would make bad citizens or bad neighbors! Are not all peoples here already? - and who is your worst neighbor if it is not a red-neck full blooded 'merican good o'lboy and his broken down fambly
those new folks want so badly and work so hard to achieve what it is they think we were born to - and we tend to think we were born to it and have to do nothing to achieve it
here's the crux of it though - we are the "New World" - at least we were-
we were a myth, a real and true and powerful myth - The New World -
people came here for a New Life, for the New Ways, for liberty (not freedom and free things), for Equality, for equal opportunity
they came in droves and they endured greater poverty and harder times than we have now or are likely to have, barring some catastrophe like war, civil insurrection, plague, famine, things that used to happen in the Old World, but have hardly happened here at all -
Most americans today don't recognize that - but people from other countries still hold that Myth dear - they believe in us more than we do
What is dangerous to us is when some of the ways of the old world creep in - corruption, special privilege, nepotism, feelings of self-entitlement, classism, graft, royalism, dynastic tendencies, and more
And much of that is what those who would come here would flee from there - it is not they who have brought these things here to us - we have done it mostly to ourselves
American Exceptionalism is a product of our immigrant past - because that is who we were then, and that is who we are now, but we have forgotten that -it is not some holy water from the Missouri river or the Great Salt Lake we are baptized with, or some such falderal - we dishonor our own history when we dishonor the immigrant and we dishonor our own heritage and our own blood
I am ashamed for my country and its ideals to hear some of you speak, and to see you write some of the things you do - you do not deserve nor even recognize the sort of privilege it is to have been born here - you think it is your due - it's not - it is a gift and you dishonor it by trying to keep it's possibility from others, and then you decry them for not being enough like you
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We don’t ‘benefit’ from immigration in a social or cultural sense. Immigration may make things different but it doesn’t make them inherently ‘better.’ If there is ‘no group who would make bad citizens or bad neighbors’, then how can there be a group that would collectively make good neighbors? Can you propose immigrants are somehow beneficial to the American culture, without me being able to say immigrants are detrimental? That is the door we open when in order to advocate a position, we oversell it, we say too much, make too many conclusions that can’t be supported. Immigration should really be allowed for the opposite reason, not that immigrants are a benefit or a detriment, but that they are innocuous, they are simply people like us, no better and no worse---and because they are like us, there is no reason to stop the influx. There is no valid reason to mention their food, their art, their aesthetics---as some kind endorsement of them as immigrants, or as a group of people---it is akin to the flaws of nationalism or cultural-ism. If you do use those features as advocacy then I can easily propose that I don’t like their food, their art and their aesthetics, and we are at an impasse. These points may seem overly specific, but it ties into so many areas, such as how we approach racism and multiculturalism.
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part 1
you raise many interesting points. ...but only for the sake of argument? are some not more likely or important than others?
but to begin somewhere - the fact is, there are going to be differences, - among them, there are those we can pick and choose - do we want to try chiles, even tho’ we have black pepper? do we want to hire someone’s nephew, even tho’ he’s a drunk? do we want bright colors for those who like them in clothing? do we want clothing which dehumanizes or sets apart for the sake of control?
SO- might it be a question of differences: inherent, and unchangeable - skin/eye color; innate but alterable - a language and the way a mind structures itself to accommodate a particular language; ingrained - must a woman walk 7 paces behind the man and cover herself? and so forth, through the various categories of difference
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part 2
for a quick response, i would say we, as a nation, should look to what our myth is - which says we are where one may make their own way, using and developing our own innate abilities to work freely ourselves in something we feel called to -; that we are now called a nation of entrepreneurs is something which has been thrust upon us by those who benefit from that- they are the entrepreneurs and we are their means to their destiny but in so doing, our own destiny is trampled upon - of course there are various definitions of destiny- argue them all out and see which would seem to fit and benefit us all most
a different culture is a bit like a different mountain with a different view of the same valley - there is so much knowledge to be gained by scaling as many of those peaks as possible-
to know only one view is not a vow of poverty, it is a choice of ignorance over knowledge -
you ask “50 questions” - and bravo! - and i make observations of a thousand sorts, because that’s what i have from my life - layer upon changing layer overlaid - rephrasing questions and proposing adequate response is not so much to arrive at a static place, but only to achieve a timely stasis in which to reconsider what might bring us closer to what it is we would endeavor; and that is on the horizon, not under our own rumps-
so yes - i think immigration is an inherently good thing for many reasons, but not to imply it is without some dangers
I also think emigration is a good thing and would quiet a lot of folks down if they had any idea at all of what the whole world is like
look for a note from onejohnny
tremendous questions!
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Illegal alien kids of undocumented workers/immigrants are still illegal aliens and have no right to be living here. It's total insanity to "reward" these people with financial perks, ie in-state tuition, that is unavailable to American born kids living in other states. Are Oregon lawmakers unable to understand the word ILLEGAL? It means breaking the law. We're already giving these kids a free 1-12 public education that is taxing our school districts, why should they be "entitled" to anything more? They need to go back where they came from and get in line with those attempting to come here as legal immigrants. It's hard to put our own American kids thru college, we owe the illegals nothing.
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I totally agree, heaven knows Mexico needs help. These best and brightest illegal alien kids should go back and fix their home country. It would be selfish of the USA to deprive Mexico of these hard working intelligent individuals.
MEXICAN GO HOME
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BARB, barb, barb...
and dfund too, it seems
IF YOU WERE ANY KIND OF PARENT YOU WOULD HAVE ENCOURAGED YOUR KIDS TO LEARN, HELPED THEM TO LEARN, AND THEY WOULD HAVE EXCELLED IN SCHOOL AND THERE ARE SCHOLARSHIPS AND GRANTS FOR THOSE WHO EXCEL-sorry about the caps lock
as i was saying - THERE'S AN IMPLICATION HERE, CAN YOU LOOK IT IN THE FACE -
EITHER YOUR KIDS ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO GO TO A REAL COLLEGE AND THEY SHOULD GO TO A TECHNICAL SCHOOL, FOR WHICH THERE ARE ALSO SCHOLARSHIPS AND GRANTS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE APTITUDE
stupid caps lock key - i am not intentionally making fun of you, dfund
do you see what i am thinking, barb? it might not be the ALIENZ. it might be your voting habits. your kids didn't get good teachers because the state couldn't afford to hire nor produce good teachers because folks like you thought they needed more money for beer and cars and drapes and would not approve schools funds - do you see the long term process here now? perhaps even you yourself suffered from not enough teachers and a bad school? so there are some long term consequences for your past behavior and you are trying to shift the blame now onto the ALIENZ
could that be a little of it?
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Defund, I agree, fully.
The majority of these illegal aliens coming here are mestizos or of pure Indian blood. These are the same ones that have fueled every single revolution that ever occurred in Mexicio and to this day there are states in the south of Mexico that are still not tamed.
From when I arrived Colombia in mid 1977, the major newspapers in Mexico were carrying articles and opinon pieces every day that urged the landless peons to march north and retake the land of their fathers from the "gringos" who stole it.
Each morning I received at my office translations of major newspapers from all over Latin America. It was provided by the USIS. Columnists writing for the major dailies in Mexico's largist cities were merely echoing unofficial govt policy. It was then 34 yrs ago a goal of Mexico's govt to rid itself on an ueducated class that were chronic trouble makers by urging them to illegally exit their borders and cross our borders and resettle those states they lost to America in the 19th century.
Bleeding heart liberals (helpful idiots) in America have been aiding the Mexican Govt in this enterprise by tolerating and defending what is in fact an invasion for the purpose of regaining political and cultural control of a large swath of this country. These helpful 'blancos' are either Quislings, or simply too suicidally liberal to comprehend their crime.
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fantastic spy novel stuff G, but more fiction and fear than fact
and not a useful bit of fiction is contained in your words - it's called paranoia
mestizo, huh?
and you are ... what... pure swiss?
"the conqueror's view of history is an abbreviated one, and short-sighted"
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You have got to be kidding me. I'm an OSU student, own my own house, pay income and property taxes, and after seven years, am STILL paying out of state tuition. I even had cancer for two years and had to stay enrolled, or I would have been thrown out of school (so said the school). Half the time I ended up dropping my classes because I was too sick to go, but at least I tried (and each time, they kept my money even though it was a health problem). I've tried to be an in-state student three times, and I've been denied every time because I didn't fulfill the requirement to work for a year without taking classes (and apparently having cancer isn't good enough). Letting illegal immigrants pay in-state tuition is ludicrous, even if there are "stringent requirements". How about you give ME in-state tuition, and then we can talk. I've considered myself an Oregonian for about five years now, and I am very, very frustrated with the hoops I have to jump through to even get heard, not to mention be taken seriously.
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lolo
So everything anyone else writes is fantasy? It seems you disagree with everything written on the board. Do you accuse me of lying? Everything I write about my background I can prove. Anyone who has been involved in Latin America or Central America as I have been (4 yrs in Belize and four more in Colombia) and was watching these events unfold can attest to my accuracy in stating them.
Paranoia? Was defending the US agianst the Japanese in 1941 racist paranoia? The Mexican invasion has no less a goal than that of the Japanese in 1941. They want what we have. If we haven't the intelligence and fortitude to defend ourselves against a foreign invasion, then perhaps we don't deserve to keep it.
If anyone posting here has mental issues, I suggest you need go no further than the nearest mirror to see the most likely candidate.
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G
you really are confrontational, and I'm not saying i am not, at least with ideas - yet for me, you seldom have a point other than what a certain sort of paranoia produces
you write in a self-aggrandizing way about your experiences, yet you really don't exhibit much of what i'd call a deeper intelligence
certainly you have the right to your opinions, such as they may be, but you are quite unintuitive and your braggadocio rings hollow - as if your experience should inform us, rather than that the ideas put out for consideration should exhibit reason
usually what i agree with which i see up here i see no reason to add my 2 bits worth-
but when fools start barking i feel the need to call them out on it -
if you can't defend your ideas, some of which i find indefensible, i can certainly understand the sort of person who reverts to calling names, although i don't think much of that sort of mind
so go to a thesaurus and look up a few more words, friend- maybe you'll improve your vocabulary, and hence your thinking processes, we hope
isn't it more that you can not stand to be challenged? you should consider that possibility.
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lolo
As I have said before, your own ignorance of planet earth is the issue you ought to address and not my real life experiences. All your rants convince me of is your near total lack of common sense and an irrational anger totally disproportional to anything that I have written here. You should reread what you write. It is shockingly hostile and angry.
I'm retired and elderly; it is wet and unpleasent out of doors, and I post messages here as something to do. I really have no need to post anything on this board. I do so in the hope that my experiences might add some helpful element of reality to what I feel are generally very naive ponts of view. These are opinions based on experiences. If these do not accord with your views, then that's okay too. But I do not need to read your angry slanders and insults.
I have no idea where all your pent-up aggression comes from. But, I sincerely hope you obtain help. I think you need it.
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no one's experience means much to another - what is worthwhile is clear and interesting thoughts to exchange -
yours aren't - you call people names - like mestizo recently, and with that you imply white supremacy - or maybe you didn't know that? among too many other examples, from practically every entry i see you make - you are easy to ignore, but you ought not to take that as agreement - and you are loud and insistent toward unthinking action - nothing you may have done in your life gives you the right to preach ignorance and urge action in ignorance - and this is why i take offense at many of your words
clear up your thinking, and you will find you won't have the same sort of bitter argument from intelligent others
there is nothing wrong with arguing, but your manner of it turns into bickering - i have never seen you back down - no... and that's called testosterone poisoning - because it is not your reasoning which is without flaw
I'm retired and elderly, and no one really gives a flying you-know-what about that, nor does it have any relevancy to what ever we might discuss, and that you bring it up just shows that you yourself recognize that you have no reasoning ability which you have developed, so therefore you will hit below the belt and moan about your age, and the weather, and whatever else you can grasp at, as if someone is supposed to take pity on you, agree with you and then wipe your chin - GIVE IT UP!
it's never too late to get a better education, dude, and you write like you could really use one - it's not your views, but the way you argue them - and bitter is exactly the term i would use for you, and entitled
i wish you good luck in that educational endeavor, because i can't see you working too hard to do it on your own.
and what? - you come along on a page days afterward to seem to have the last word?
tsk! you win the argument that way only in your own head, and how laughable is that?
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Now I understand. You're Scott Miller, posting under a different name. No wonder I thought you were female!
You got your knickers in a twist some months ago when I made a critical comment about Israel. That's why I am in your gun sight.
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Oh G!
you are a sick, sick, and paranoid, individual. perhaps this is why you have no intuition whatsoever-
I would urge you to find a trusted psychotherapist and discuss your problems there, but not here -
surely your pension from OSIS (?) or CIA or whatever spook or corporate operation you were flung all over the globe for, will cover the damage they did to you -
you've had "spawn", by the way? Do they like being referred to that way?
go ahead, seek help - there is no need of feeling shame for seeking help
on the other hand, shame is what you should feel for many, many of the ideas you've bandied about here
when you have ideas that you can stand having comment upon, please don't hold back - except of course your howls when you are greeted with skepticism instead of accolades and cheers - just because you've found some folks who agree with you (doubtful) doesn't mean there are very many folks out there, ones who think deeply and clearly, would also agree with you - they would agree only that you have the right to an opinion, whether mis-formed, malformed or well formed - but just having an opinion doesn't make you right - and really, an opinion is more likely to make one wrong, for it is something formed to fill in some missing information, not something thought because all the facts are before one - that's called an informed decision, informed action, informed opinion, if you will
i like writing too much - and these words to you are not only falling upon deaf your ears, but are pearls before swine
at your next reply i will simply tell you how loudly i laughed when i read it, and from now on, when there is an "X" in a comment under your foolhardy "opinions", you'll know i read it laughed at the ignorance of it
so, knock yerse'f out, buddy, and do get a good night's sleep - it'll help clear your mind - you won't recognize yourself
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Wow! You are furious, Scott. Settle down a tad and reread your angry gibberish once in awhile. If anyone needs help here, it is you. Someone as seriously confrontational and insulting and angry as you are does need help. By the way, my children would have no problem with my occasional reference to them as "spawn". They'd get a kick out of it.
You must be one of the moderators or else they would have shut you down by now. You are much too angry and insulting to be tolerated otherwise on a publicly supported web site.
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what a maroon!
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(these are not "x"'s as in XOX)
-get a life-
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Thank you! Übersetzung Englisch Deutsch
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Comments are now closed.
I just think it is a funny juxtaposition that we follow "TOL goes to the Zoo" with "TOL goes to the Legislature".