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Thousands of Egyptians are crying, "Egypt is free! Egypt is free!" this morning after President Hosni Mubarak made an about face and announced he is stepping down. The news comes on the heels of his speech to the nation yesterday that he would resign. Mubarak has fled to the Sinai resort town of Sharm el-Sheikh. This is a flip flop from yesterday, when the embattled leader faced thousands crowded in Cairo's Tahrir Square amidst. Yesterday, he said he would delegate some power to his vice president, but refused to cave to international pressure to resign. After he spoke, the crowd in the Square erupted with roars of "get out!" A protester in the crowd told CNN: "This guy is calling for more rage in the country."
While some U.S. foreign policy analysts look at the change developing in Egypt and what it means to countries like Israel, other folks, like high school world history teachers, are challenged with giving historical context to the developing situation.
On this show we'll reconnect with some members of the Egyptian community in Oregon who we've spoken with before to find out how they're reacting to this news. And we'll hear from you — what do you think of what President Mubarak said?
Guests:
- Ahmed Raslan - Egyptian living in Oregon
- Ahmed Shams - Egyptian living in Oregon
- Dominick Degiovanno - Freshman world history teacher at Wilsonville High School
Tagged as: egypt
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Jacob, did you forget that Benazir Bhutto was assassinated in December of 2007?
Also, Saddam Hussein al Tikriti was captured in a "spider hole," while a "Rat Hole" is what the Cheney/Bush Administration flushed our tax dollars down on the false premise that Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 9/11.
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Interesting in Bhutto's family, the Pakistani Presidency is kept like a family jewel handed to other relatives. Consider the history of Pakistan since independence a bit over 50 years ago:
Her father was president/ prime minister. She was president. Her husband is now president. Her son is studying in Oxford and is being groomed to be a future president. Her daughter?
Two of their family presidents were politically assasinated, and all living members exist in crosshairs and thus are most comfortable living abroad. They make the Kennedy Dynasty look like amateurs.
I am less certain that Pakistan is a democracy rather than a family estate. But it has the Islamic Bomb, and cannot be ignored. And it is both a close friend and our most dangerous enemy.
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re: Kennedy dynasty - slightly off-topic, BUT:
this is a disingenuous use of the term 'dynasty' - when they ran for office, they did it like anyone else running for office -perhaps using all the flaws and the idealisms of our system, but not the royalist tendencies others would infer - they did never try to establish a dynasty, nor did they take unfair advantage of their popularity, and in fact have tended to renounce any of the advantages a dynasty might offer - unlike some others who capitalize on a name but are vacant of all else - We may have loved the Kennedys, but they seemed more to run, to win or lose, based on competence and performance - the 'Kennedy dynasty' is a lie used by those who need lies to make themselves look better - in other words "...make the Kennedy dynasty look like amateurs ..." is true, because a dynasty was never their objective, and to imply otherwise is to imply a lie - which i'd like to believe one would not wish to do intentionally -
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Mubarak's speech was not entirely unexpected, on my part. Watch as the political master plays the worldwide crowd like a champion trout fisherman, until either the crowd stands down, or he gets an impregnable safe hole out. When knowledgeable and perceptive reporters on the street in Cairo are asked what is going on, and the response is essentially, "Dam*%d if I know," you know that somebody is playing games with the public mind. Let's see if there is peace beyond Friday prayers tomorrow. (We can only hope!)
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May the Egyptians find true justice in their land for only then will they find Peace. Inshallah.
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In some cultures democracy just doesn't work so good>. but unrealistic fainters look at the world through rose colored glasses.
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DFUND
Democracy has been prevented from "working so good" in Egypt because the US has supported and funded the, "very Conservative", "small government", Dictator Mubarak.
And it is our stain of shame that makes those well bloodied "rose colored glasses" look rosy.
Let's stop supporting the bad guys in the world and start supporting the democracies.
Remember, we Americans had no tradition of Democracy until our colonists threw off the chains of the "small government" Conservative King and his Corporation in 1776 and started our own version of democracy from scratch, jumping into the deep end with both feet.
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TOM .. THE REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION AND QUATERING TROOPS IN CIVILIAN HOMES > A REVOLUTION AGAINST GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE, BUT GO AHEAD AND THINK WHAT U HAVE BEEN TAUGHT. THE WAY LIBS TWIST HISTORY IS TRUELY AN ACCOMPLISHMENT OF THE TEACHERS OF THE NEA.
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@ DFUND's reply
I encourage you to learn a lot more about the history of the 1776 Revolution, because your small amount of knowledge of that history is an example of the saying that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
I can recommend Thom Hartmans "Unequal Protection" about Corporations, and Howard Zinns "A People History of the United States" and "Declarations of Independence". Along with the many other historians and books of that era.
The knowledge is available, all you have to is want to learn it and then take the actions to actually learn it.
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DEMOCRACY WORKED HERE BECAUSE OF OUR JUDEO CHRISTIAN CULTURE
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for deafened
democracy is FAILING here because it is being PERVERTED by the misapplication of ideas that are best kept under lock and key, hidden away, and studied only by experts of history i.e. ALL religion - of which Judeo- Xtian is one of the most blood-thirsty, intolerant sorts -
the founders of this country, the writers of our constitution were highly educated men (not to exclude women) and theirs was (and ours is still) an extremely LIBERAL endeavor
the corporations are the tories, the royalists, the plutocrats, the oligarchs, the slave-holders, and you are likely just a wage slave, and the role you play is they role the apologists wanted to portray the slaves in - not being able to take care of yourself and you need Lever Brothers/GM/Ford to tell you what to do to keep you out of the devil's hands -
well, all that is simply your own failing to take responsibility for yourself
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TOL folks, the OPB tv schedules are down again, would someone please notify the websters? It returns the msg:
502
Bad Gateway
The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
Thanks.
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I think Mubarak blew it, he had to know this was inevitable. He could have done this far more gracefully and retained some dignity and some support from his people. He will now be remembered as a sore looser.
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LATEST NEWS: MUBARAK STEPS DOWN.
The Question is what comes NEXT?
Anarchy? Bloody Struggle? Sectarian Violence? Assassinations and Bombings? Another New Dynastic Dicatator? Muslim Brotherhood Sharia Theocracy? Democracy?
We see birthing pains of transition in Iraq, Afganistan, Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, and Tunisia. And like Jacobin revolution, blood flows by the buckets in muslim communities. And revolutions may last decades.
The Work is ahead and the Challenge Overwhelming.
Arab countries seem to sink deeper and deeper into Fundamental Theocratic Islamic Governance as the solution to globalization, poverty and poor competitiveness.
Young inexperienced students, though enthusiastic, can be real hacks at government if you look at Iran.
Will we see a rabid Islamic Fascist State dedicated to exterminate Israel, kidnap and execute infidels, oppose the West and stymie America? Or a liberal democracy that respects human rights?
After you clean up Tahir Square, you have to clean up 50 years of poor governance and serve 80 million people in a state poorer than Mexico.
Time Will Tell.
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Here is what I would like President Obama to say:
"We, the Citizens of the United States of America, acknowledge that it was wrong for the USA to support the Conservative Dictator Mubarak, and we apologize to The Egyptian People for doing that. We see that we should have supported The People of Egypt in freeing themselves and then governing themselves."
"And so, we hereby reverse our previous US policies of supporting any and all Conservative "Small Governments", whether Dictators, Kings, or any other form or repressive "small governments". And we put all such governments on notice that they have at most five years to change and create democracies in their nations through free and fair elections."
"And we will re-assign our CIA and other ACRONYM agencies to track down and stop the people and or Corporations who have corrupted such nations leaders and help to bring about honest and fair dealings in business and politics."
"And we ask for the help of The Egyptian People in making sure that Mubarak and any of his henchmen are brought to justice fairly and completely for any crimes they have committed against The Egyptian People and or any other people in the world. (Hint, hint, Dick "The Torturer" Cheney)"
"Just as you are changing your country, we are changing ours."
(/End my idealistic reverie about justice in the world.) -
What seems most important to me is that the people decide who their leadership should be -- and it seems that, now, this is possible in Egypt.
For those worried about a 'religious' group coming into power, I ask, how would this be any different than, say, an Evangelical religious person in the Whitehouse? How could it be any worse than having a dictator (Mubarak) in power?
Are people worried that Christians may be oppressed? I hope it works both ways and the same people are aware and feel just as concerned about the oppression of other peoples (especially those oppressed in the supposed 'Land of the Free'). Those who live in glass houses, and all ;)
Justice, Peace and success to the people of Egypt!
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When Cameron Was in Egypt's Land....Let My People Go.
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Nice Ferris Bueller reference! Hahaha!
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I would just like to thank Emily and the the Think Out Loud staff for your handling of this news and discussion. You and OPB have imo done MUCH better than the general run of the mill NPR coverage. NPR tends to be "quasi-official," as our press used to say about the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram. It tends to be cautious and never to allow voices that question the assumptions of U.S. policy. It tends to echo official pronouncements or draw on think tanks closely aligned with the U.S. foreign policy establishment. (Not to mention mostly copying its choice of stories from the NYTimes.)
Your discussion has been much freer. The official U.S. view enters in, but is not assumed as inherently right. Much appreciated, keep up the good work.
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Very good post, amanzi, and I agree with you about your points.
Too often NPR sounds like the Voice of America propaganda that is broadcast to foreign countries, only turned inward against The People of the US.
And it has only gotten worse since Bush/Cheney purged the CPB and installed Conservatives instead of moderates to run things.
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DONT KID URSELVES >. OPB AND LIBS ARE CENSORSHIP THUGS >. U WILL NEVER SEE A LIB COMMENTATOR NAME SUDDENLY BE GONE . BUT CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATORS ALWAYS SEEM TO COME UP MISSING
Write with civility and respect. Attack arguments, not commenters.
"COMMENTERS" IS NOT A WORD
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neither is dfund a word - so you're in limbo, ain't ya'?
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What I thought Mubarak should have said to the different Egyptian factions on his way out was: Prove my worst fears wrong and reconcile the differences among you peacefully. [Democracy will not get you peace if you do not resolve to make room for the diversity among you. Majority rule can be the worst kind of rule if you do not have minority rights.]
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It could end up like it did when Faruk was ousted. Nasser took his place. Everything was socialized, and tens of thousands were dispossessed, and minorities were no longer protected by their positions and wealth.
I can't imagine that anything better for the Egyptian masses is going to come along now. The US agencies for foreign intervention will, of course, try as usual to guide events in ways that keep Israel protected. As in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, etc. We will do our best to ensure the kind of chaos and discorder, and discord that will do to Egypt what has been done elsewhere in Mideast...the creation of a greatly weakened and even poorer country unable to control its own people much less pose a threat of any kind to Israel.
That is unless the army holds on to power again and another Nasser steps forward. Then all bets are off.
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In THREE WEEKS We have witnessed THREE ARAB GOVERNMENTS FALL: TUNISIA, SUDAN(Succession) and now EGYPT.
DOMINO THEORY BECOMES REALITY.
IS this the end or just the beginning of REVOLUTION 2.011? Can the momentum be stopped? Can anything stop viral Social Networking on the Internet? Tweet.
What country will be NEXT?
Ans: My Guess is an Arab Dictator with an Iron Fist in Power for over 20 years. The Selections are bigger than you think. I hope for Iran or Syria, but am considering Libya, Somalia or Yemen.
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which country will be next?
if we had any sense, it would be US-
there would be a second (but peaceful) American revolution - and we would delegitimize graft, croneyism, ignorance, religionism, and fear of the intellectual- we would not kill the ignorant but neither would we let them over-run us nor out-populate us, we would become a meritocracy - not by following past rules but by learning from past mistakes-
there would be intelligence tests for those who would lead, those who would procreate and those who would rise to the public eye- stupid is a bad example and it is contagious-
one could live their dumb life out, but one cannot not foist more stupid children upon us to support - intelligence has shown itself in every 'race', ethnicity and gender
the beauty contest would become a brains contest -
there's nothing good about being a middle-man, and that's exactly what most american entrepreneurial spirit has degenerated into - another term for it would be 'the thief between' - there's nothing high tech about a 'gadgeteer' and the future does not lie in waiting for the end of the world
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I think the comments that the Egyptian military would not attack The Egyptian People because they are a conscript Army are interesting. That is one of the arguments that I support for a universal draft in the US.
The US has a Professional career mercenary military and I wonder what they would do in a similar situation? Bush/Cheney made them dependent on the federal government more than they ever were before, so would they support the government or The People when push came to shove?
The US also has the State National Guards which traditionally live among The People and only drill and practice on the weekends and at summer camps but have been Federally Nationalized into fighting contant wars and so I wonder what they would do.
Interesting to contemplate.
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I hope we never have to find out what our own National Guard would do in a worst case scenario.
I don't think the Egyptian military will relinquish power very readily. Nasser, Sadat, Mubarak all military men. Stability produced by any civilian govt in the Mideast is NOT the policy goal of the US. Not unless the stability is imposed by a dictator coming from the military whom we can continue to control through bribery. The very last thing the US actually wants to see in Egypt is a democratically elected govt that reflects the views of the Egyptian people.
But I doubt the ouster of Mubarak will result in a democratic Govt led by civilians. We can no longer afford to bribe on the necessary scale.
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you bring up a very cogent point -
also re: proselytization among the troops - as in '...onward xtian soldiers ...' , 'bringing the fight home' and 'might makes right'
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The Egptian people need to have their voice heard.
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It was heard and notes were taken and the army has reinstated business as usual. Just a different general in the palace(s), now
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Traditionally, when US based Corporations lost control of their Conservative "small government" Dictator of some nation, they sent in a US Marine Expeditionary Force to crush the hopes for Freedom and Liberty of The People in that Nation and restore the always oppressive Conservative "small government" Dictatorship.
So it is surprising that has not happened so far.
I sure would like to see a Wikileaks type dump into public of all of the conversations of the Ambassadors and Envoys, and all of the communications from our State Department and Pentagon with the Egyptian Military and also with Mubarak. Hmm, and between all those and the US based Corporations, too. There must have been an incredible lot of talking and negotiations going on.
It seems that this is an extraordinary change in US policy.
Will another Conservative dictator arise from the ranks of the military or will the military actually allow The People to create an actual Democracy?
Will US based Corporations allow the Egyptians to have a Democracy?
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We won't have to in this case. The army has already indicated to the US that it will honor the Camp David accords, and continue taking that $1.2 billion a yr. Now they have to draw straws to see which general will take Mubarak's place.
....and clean up that square.
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Comments are now closed.
Kleptomaniac tyrant who has stole billions from the state, depends on the wealth of hydrocarbons and cares nothing for ecology, spends way too much on weapons, suppresses dissent with an iron fist, ignores human rights abuses, hands out patronages to few loyal patriarchs, depends on a circle of vicious generals for survival, gives lip service to islam, silences all media and disappears critics, cooperates and manipulates Western governments who irrationally fear terrorism, claims to be a democratically elected president for a life term, and wants to hand the leadership to his Son.
That describes Mubarak, but also Saddam Hussein of Iraq, the Shah of Iran, Muhomar Khadafi of Libya, Ben Ali of Tunisia, President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan, King Abdullah of Jordan, President Bashar al Assad of Syria, President Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and even Presidents Zardari and Benazir Bhutto(Power Couple) of Pakistan. Except for the hydrocarbon wealth and islam it also describes Kim Jong-il of North Korea.
It explains why there was so much resistance in the Arab world when the US Coalition unseated Saddam Hussein by force in 2003. Saddam Hussein was no worse and no better than his peers. ALL Arab leaders are just as guilty. And they know their rule is baseless and their time is limited.
And peaceful transition is rare. Saddam Hussein had over 50 of imposters, dozens of palaces, and never slept in the same place twice. He had to be flushed out of a rat hole.
All tyrants are the same at heart. They frequently must leave at the barrel of a gun. Many cannot return to their homeland for real fears of retribution. Machiavelli was right.
For Arabs, the real enemy in the past 40 years are their own governments...not the trumpeted failures of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Governments that failed to address poverty, hunger, disease, lack of clean water, education, women's rights, housing and infrastructure despite having literally struck oil in their backyards. It would be terrible if islamic militants began to target their true enemies--other muslims in power.
Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. --W. Churchill