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This week marks an annual commemoration of the Holocaust, with local and international tributes. They honor survivors and remember the millions of people, mostly Jews, who were killed.
Local organizations also commemorated the genocide in Rwanda this week. That conflict began on April 6, 1994. Within a few months, hundreds of thousands of people, mostly ethnic Tutsis, were killed.
The commemorations focus on the past with the aim of changing the future. We'll speak with two Oregonians — one who survived Nazi concentration camps during the Holocaust and another who lived through Rwanda in 1994 — about what it would take to never see genocide again.
For Marie Abijuru, who saw two uncles killed as her family sought safety in Rwanda, it has been hard just talking with people she was used to fearing. For Alter Wiener, who has spent the past decade speaking to hundreds of people about his time in Nazi camps, the challenge can be connecting to people too distracted for history.
The Holocaust and Rwanda are two dark points on a long list of genocides and alleged genocides. (The term itself can be controversial.) They're also inspiration for activism against genocide.
What do you think? What would it take for ethnic-based killing to never happen again? Have you been personally affected by any genocide? What would you like to ask a survivor?
GUESTS:
- Alter Wiener: Holocaust survivor, author of From a Name to a Number: A Holocaust Survivor's Autobiography
- Marie Abijuru: Immigrant to Oregon from Rwanda, lived through the 1994 genocide there.
NOTE: We'll be continuing this conversation, with a focus on how to keep stories of genocide alive after the eyewitnesses to history have died, in follow-up show.
Tagged as: genocide · holocaust · rwanda
Photo credit: Emily Harris/OPB
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My grandfather was a party member and "county-level" administrator in Germany and Alsace during the time of the Holocaust, he was tried for war-crimes, aquitted and got on with his life... I often wish he'd lived long enough for me to talk about it with him when I was old enough to understand. I'd liked to have learned how the otherwise decent person that I knew for but a short while joined such an insane movement.
What I've learned as I've watched this occur over and over is that as long as there's an 'us' and a 'them' it will happen again... no country, religion or political movement is immune and that it's up to us, collectively as the citizenry, to stop it.
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This is a very important topic. Let us also not forget other victims of the Holocuast: homosexuals, gypsies, those with mental & physical disablities. Too often these discriminations are glossed over, becasue they are still very raw in our culture today in America. Let them not be forgotten today!
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Thoughout history we have focused on the effects to the victums of genocide, the Holocaust, rape, bullying, terrorism, etc - and yet it keeps happening.
I would like to suggest that we start shining the light on the pathology behind the crimes as well as the effect on the victims.
In recent history we began to identify rape, not as an act of passion, but one of hate. This has put the focus on the pathology and there has been a change in the reaction to this crime.
The same has begun to happen with school bullying. By focusing on the pathology of the perpitrators exposed the roots, and gives the community/other students a proactive roll in helping to prevent.
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Never Again meant Never Again. One ethnic cleansing doesn't justify another. I fear this is a lesson that hasn't been learned and the coming into effect of an Israeli Military order to allow the mass deportations of Palestinians in addition the recent massacre of the world's largest concentration camp in Gaza and the history of atrocities and apartheid all signal the wrong lessons were learned and applied from the holocaust in perpetuating such acts of violence on behalf of the victims of the atrocious acts of the holocaust.
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An additional way the holocaust ruined the world, that is rarely realized---how we handle religion. After the holocaust, in a mistaken attempt to not have it happen again, we have decided that religion (ideology and personal choice) cannot be criticized collectively, in the way we can criticize other non-religious groups of people. Religion now has a false umbrella of protection, and in many ways the same protections as gender or race, that it does not deserve. If anything, the holocaust ensured the longevity of all religions.
Religions have the freedom to spread their bigotry and hatred while being fully protected, by our lack of distinctions---and, our fear that we will start another holocaust. We are now in the odd predicament of not wanting to criticize or even mention Islam's role in the actions of Muslim terrorists. Now the tables are turned, 'extremists' are using a religion to exact terror. Is it not obvious to everyone, that terrorism is not a stretch from the beliefs of many religions---that terrorists are just quickening the pace of god's will, by bringing terror to non-believers now, instead of later?
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How we handle eugenics is another "ruined" topic... now it'll come thru a backdoor euphemism rather than through the front door where it can be debated.
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rethomas, I know what it says, not sure what you mean though. I am kind of slow to catch on. Sorry... .
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A wonderful man named Hans Biglajzer lives in Bend - he, too, is a Holocaust survivor. Hans works as a saddler, a trade he learned while being held in concentration camps. He was taught to make saddles and other leather goods for the Nazi soldiers, a skill that helped ensure his survival during his imprisonment for 9 years.
After the war, Hans moved to the states and started to work as a saddler - the only skill he possessed. He still works on saddles today. There was a recent documentary titled "Leather Jude" made about Hans' life (you can find it on youtube if interested). Hans has the most amazingly positive outlook on life and possesses an incredible sense of humor. He is a testament to the power of the human spirit to overcome adversity!
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What would it take for ethnic-based killing to never happen again?
Everyone would have to have everything they would ever need; economies would have to be perpetually stable; we would have to figure out a way to run our world on completely renewable, cheap, abundant energy; nationalism and cultural/religious identities would have to go away...etc...etc...etc...
Basically, it is not going away.
We would have a better chance of reducing it, though, if people would stop the constant drum beat of Holocaust reminders and the "Never Again" rhetoric, and started working to raise the overall standard of living in the world.
When people have something to lose, they are less likely to be so extreme.
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I'd like to think that people could use reason and education---or is that not enough? Do things have to be going well for people not to act like monsters? We seem to all love to hate the wealthy. Maybe the species is that pathetic, that a little entertainment from the riches of capitalism, granite counter-tops instead of Formica, and we will all forget we hate each other. I hope this is true!
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Well, not that we will stop hating each other, but we will be far less likely to carry that hate to the next level.
Think of the bogus Tea Party people of today versus the people that actually carried out the American Revolution. Or racists today versus the KKK that used to be able to operate outside the law and, thus, without consequence.
People whine and complain, but no one is really going to overthrow the government, or start murdering black people, Republicans, and/or Democrats on a large scale.
...if conditions ever changed enough, though... Well, the US is not special, we are just as capable of genocide here as anyone else.
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I agree, it seems to make sense that economic stability and better standards of living would make people less likely to act, well, crazy. But, my concern is that things were not really that bad in Germany at the time of the Holocaust. I feel like it has been exaggerated to explain the barbarism. Don't we often use bad conditions and poverty as an excuse for extremism, to explain it away. Maybe it was just that bad. I guess Hilter was rejected 'cause people hated his art---maybe that was his excuse? Then we had all the artistic propaganda by Ms. Riefenstahl. What was she up to? She certainly found a job. These were fairly civilized and cultured people...! I just don't know what to think.
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Germany certainly was not as bad off as Rawanda. But, Hitler's rhetoric was far stronger than anything we have ever heard in this country from a presidential candidate, and the people were receptive to it because, in their frame of reference, they were pretty desperate.
Jeez, we have a correction in our economy and we are already elevating Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin to Best Sellers because we feel "desperate".
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True, it just seems so relative, that their will always be some outside reason. We did after-all elect Mr. Bush. We did have slaves, when things were going fairly well. And out of the European oppression America was formed by oppressing the first nations people. It seems like when there is any shakeup or shift in power it is usually preceded by some dramatic event. Of course the chicken and its egg reappear, maybe things are going bad, because they are already set on the decline.
The antisemitism was brewing for a while in Germany, Austria, and others...maybe the economy was an accelerant to spread the spark that started long before. Perhaps, if someone would have thrown the Germans a tasty bone to gnaw on, or some spangles, they would not have seen a need to slaughter millions. It is odd to think that the holocaust could not have happened. What would that generation of Germans have grown into? Would they be just like you and me? Are there so few degrees of separation? Is that all there is? So many chances, so many right conditions? And bam! Damn are things that volatile around here? Like that idea of setting out to rob a bank, and on the way you get into an accident, so you never complete the task. Are you a bank robber? Would the Nazis, not have been Nazis, had economic conditions been (gotten) better? What ifs.
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Yeah, there always will be people beyond reason.
You know, it's depressing to think that we can only work to reduce genocide because a utopia is impossible.
But, the idea that genocide would be possible even in a utopia... That's depressing on a whole new level.
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As futile as it is, perhaps the only thing to do, as you originally suggested, is to lessen the risks. Maybe this relates to nature versus nurture on a grand scale. It must depend on the ratio of nature to nurture. And, which has the greater percentage? Does evolution effect those ratios? Has it changed over time? Maybe that is where our equilibrium lies. If people can be effected too much by nurture, then if a culture gets infested by a meanie bug, then the danger will be multiplied over and over. Maybe the balance has remained the same over time, and society eventually checks itself back into some kind of order. The German's seem to have learned something and are back on track. That is why people who were directly effected by the holocaust don't want us to forget, they want us to remember---so, hopefully the memory will serve as a corrective. Are we getting any smarter though? Do I need to shoot up, to not like heroin? How many genocides will it take? How many chances at trial and error do we have left? Perhaps, it does seem like much of the earth has improved over time. Our knowledge has progressed. Let me stop yacking about all this, 'cause I am making myself sick... .
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Lake Oswego High School has offered a Genocide Awareness Program to the freshman English classes for the past three years. It is managed by parent volunteers and has the support of the administration. This year we brought in speakers who included survivors, or relatives of survivors, from the Holocaust, the Rwandan Genocide and the Cambodian Genocide. We tried to get as many speakers as possible so they could speak to classes individually. This provides a more intimate opportunity for both the speaker and the students. It was quite powerful for the students to hear first-hand accounts of the survivor's experiences and to realize genocide is real. It happens to real people, not just some group of people on the other side of the world.
Some teachers also had students participate in community volunteer activities to help their students understand that survivors often end up as refugees and how difficult their lives continue to be.
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I think that we have to educate kids about what brings genocides about, the politics of it, the fear-mongering, the divisiveness, the picking out minority groups to demonize and bully in order to unite the majority against them.
We have to teach kids about the history, roots, and politics of Conservatism, to try and innoculate them against Conservatism.
You can't just teach kids that it happened, you have to teach them what caused it and how to prevent it, how to be brave and stand up against Conservatism, to constantly expose the lies of Conservatism to the light of day, to always confront them with proof of their dishonesty.
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Conservatism has little to do with it... we all have this capability inside of us... Germany in the 30's/40's was Socialist... Stalin's genocides were under the auspices of Communism... red, blue (or any other color) are equally capable and culpable.
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@Tom D Ford,
One facet of the natural polarity that has developed in our country can be understood in terms of 'nurturing love' on the left and 'tough love ' on the right. [Both are necessary but the timing is tricky.] Once the camps are in competition though, they need foot soldiers. And, as the competition intensifies, both sides start scraping the bottom of the barrel for recruits. Paradoxically this is the best recruiting tool for the other side.
You are astute to fear the toughs - minus the love - folk on the bottom right. Still it is the laziest of the entitlement crowd on the bottom left that pushes them into hysterics. Add a demigod to re-direct their rage at a fabricated polical target on the upper left, and you potentially have civil breakdown.
An almost mirror image of this happens on the left. The difference is that the middle left is the rage factory that seems to need no help drawing a false comparison with the toughs on the bottom right and the tough love folks that sometimes have degrees of political power.
Both sides end up destroying the best of the other while focusing on the worst. This, while a few opportunists fan the flames.
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Mr. Wiener said that the thing that turned the emailer's grandfather from an otherwise decent man into the monster of the Nazi, was fear. Can education cure fear?
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No, and fear is a very incomplete explanation.
Physicians involved in the German eugenics program (a domestic health program separate from The Holocaust) that murdered the mentally ill and other lives undeserving of life, adults and children, were neither uneducated nor fearful.
Their actions were very authoritative and based in, what they convinced themselves to be, very sound medical science.
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Thank you for answering my question. Does "mob" behaviour somehow relate to what happens in genocide?
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My Father was part of the German Navy as a teen. He passed away just a few years ago. He said he went in and rebuilt after they destroyed areas - that was how he learned a trade. Dad's home was inhabited by American troups when they came into Germany to defend against Hitler. My Father's niece doesn't like to talk about things now. But I would like to learn from them, not to condemn, but to hear a first hand experience and what they learned - what they would do differently, from their perspective how do they make sure it doesn't happen again. I want my children to grow up learning from their story.
How would you suggest I word things in writing to them.
-Sylvia :O)
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In the case of Rawanda, I think so.
In the case of Germany, it is not that clear. German citizens were not made aware of the eugenics program at first. Family members of the mentally ill, for instance, were just told that their relative was transferred to a special hospital for "new and special" treatment. The family would receive a death certificate a short while later with some benign sounding cause of death. People started putting 2 and 2 together with the help of physicians that started speaking openly against the program.
That program attempted to operate in relative secrecy, but with a sense of propriety and due process by setting up (literal) death panels of expert physicians that "assessed" the patients and decided whether or not to kill them.
So, that was very different from flat out mob slaughter.
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What my parents told me was that in post-war (WWI) Germany the economy was so bad and his prospects so limited he decided that (late 20's) this new little political party might offer him prospects for a better life for him and his family... maybe not fear, but desperation is the better answer. Still I would have liked to discuss it with him...
What do folks think would happen here in the states if the economy worsened to the extent that our money was near worthless and a large percent of the population was out of work... would the door be open to someone (regardless of their politics) who would put everyone back to work, give them back their self-respect and a purpose to their life? A heady drug for the populace indeed.
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@ Sylvia
Everything I have read, especially "The Nazi Doctors", has painted a picture of Germany that should make talking about the subject pretty easy.
The German people were, overall, good people in a really bad situation, and they were, in no way, uniformly blind followers of Hitler...even those in the military.
You have to remember that, after World War I, the US and Britain imposed extremely harsh sanctions that made it hard for Germany to recover economically. So, there were reasons other than killing Jews for joining the military.
If you approach from that direction...a direction of: "Tell me about your life." instead of "Why did Dad join the Nazis?"...your relatives will probably be much more open and you might get some amazing insight.
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I appreciated all your guest mentione about the education as tools to prevent genocide again. I was invited once to present the Congolese genocide at Jews coalition, the question is now we all don't want the genocide to happen any more what about the on going GENOCIDE IN EASTERN CONGO? this is happing on our generation, it seems like no one notice that. "SIX MILLIONS"
Jeremy from Congo
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With all due respect to your guests' religious beliefs, I think that the concept of "God" is at the base of most of the slaughter of human beings. Humans are always interpreting what god is and what god wants -- humans with their pride, their greed, their insecurities -- and often with their poverty. Muslim terrorists today, with their belief of what god is and wants, would think nothing (and have done so) of slaughtering other human beings with other beliefs. Religion and each religion's concept of god is one of the major factors that separates human beings and makes genocide possible. Paula McBride Moskal, Salem
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You are right, I believe. The word "god" is not a personal name, which is what throws the wild card in. It refers to the mighty one, essentially, in any language. If we are talking about anything, it is only possible to gain a level footing if we agree on our terms. How could anyone say "chairs are uncomfortable" because his chairs are? I think the character of the one you call "god" is the vital issue. Even when you use a personal name like Jesus, it is very simple to make him into whatever you want. I guess maybe you have to fall back onto his advice: "By their fruits you will know them."
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PaulaMcBrideMoskal,
I was in line, at Food Front on Saturday, and the customer in front of me was thanked for bringing their own bag. Of course I'm completely bag-less---and I'm thinking to myself that she is really gonna hate me. I am not getting a thank you! (Though, I was buying a jam from China and a cheese from England. So the lack of my bag should probably be the least of their green-concerns.) Many ideologies have the capacity to separate the world, even jute tote versus plastic---the problem with religious ideologies and their power, is they can't be debated when they all stem from faith in a supernatural. All ideologies can do massive damage, but religious ideologies have the capacity for greater damage because of their faith-based defenses.
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In communist China, Chairman Mao annihalated religions that had been around for millenia.
This conveniently opened space for the "religion" of Chairman Mao.
Whom many believed was a god on earth.
Who promoted the deaths of non-observers.
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Like domestic violence, genocide is passed on from generation to generation. Unfortunately, the lesson too often is "this mustn't happen to me again", not "this must never happen again."
Thus we saw the Nazi's persecution of the Jews echoed
in a half-century of brutality against Israel's Arab minority and Arab neighbors.
Next a group of Arabs attacked the US for funding their persecution -
it's been our largest "foreign-aid" annual expense for decades.
In retaliation we attacked Afghanistan and Iraq.
Who will be the next to experience this series of brutal retributions? -
In these conversations about genocide we get to here the stories
from the victims. But why do we not confront the perpetrators.
It might be difficult to find surviving Nazis, but in Rwanda the guilty are still at large. Why?
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People are tribally adapted. We use identity as a tool to function competitively in a crowded world where survival units are huge. Self interest is universal. Shortsightedness springs eternal with each new generation.
Keep the memories alive. Preserve the old photographs. Make documentaries. The human element is alive and ever pressent.
The 'miracle' of pluralism if we can preserve it, is to make diversity our identity. Unfortunately, this require the rest of the world to exist as a bad example of the opposite. We all know Democrats and Republicans who would commit Genocide against the other, if the conditions looked like they were favorable. Without the Electoral College we would soon divide geographically into waring camps. Vigilance is warranted.
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The genocide in Germany was only one horrific result of Hitler's manic desire to conquer the world. He was a master at utilizing the tools of emotion to forward his goals and induce others to act: pejudice, fear, hatred, greed, crowd-think. And he used science to legitimize his claims and forward his agenda. I truly believe he would not have stopped grouping people as "not worthy to live" until he himself was dead. It was not poverty or prejudice, but an manic man who manipulated the deepest emotions of many many people. This manipulation of hearts and minds for evil gains is what we have to learn to recognize and fight against if we are to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
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I had the honor of meeting Alter Weiner when he came to Vancouver to speak. He is an international treasure, his book "From a Name to a Number" a must read. There are no words to express the tremendous courage it takes to tell these stories of horror, over and over so that we do not forget.
I had the opportunity to live in Sweden amongst refugees from many different war-torn countries---Iran, Chile, El Salvador, Beirut, Eritrea, to name a few. These friends were traumatized by torture, missing loved ones, every kind of violence. My years spent with them, working for Amnesty International, and seeing atrocities repeated decade after decade led me to create Peace Planet Project to connect and support the many diverse and vital peace building efforts going on all around the world today.
May the courage of Marie Abijuru, and Alter Weiner be a catalyst for us all to engage in co-creating the world we want, seeing every potential conflict as an opportunity to practice peace.
Laura Merrell
www.peaceplanetproject.com
Peace Planet Foundation
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I have a good friend who is a Tutsi Rwandan genocide survivor. She listened to your show, but because her ordeal was very traumatic, she does not talk about it with many people.
What I have learned from her story, and the small stack of books she gave me to read is very important for us now: the Rwandan genocide was manufactured and triggered by hate radio. There were shock jocks, and one in particular, who spewed hateful doctrine against Tutsis, calling them names and saying that they needed to be eliminated. Because this was tolerated, this vitriolic hate speech was repeated on a daily basis. It made Hutus increasingly hostile and angry. Then, it escalated to action. It was the shock jocks who called Hutus to action, and organized them. The genocidaires tuned into their radios to get the latest information on who to kill and where.
We need to recognize that we hear this same rhetoric from shock jocks on our own radio stations--recently many right wing commentators have called for the "elimination" of liberals. Not "liberalism" but "liberals"--as people. This kind of rhetoric we cannot allow.
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My heart goes out to your friend. I sincerely hope she is able to find some peace and happiness.
In response to your comments, I agree there should be laws against calling for the death of anyone in public forums because fear of reprisal keeps many people from speaking up, giving the impression that what is said is correct and ok.
Even simple bullying is hard for witnesses to stand up to .....from the playground to nations....and that's how they get away with it
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The play "Rose" (Triangle Productions) is currently at the CoHo Theater in NW Portland. It's a one-woman show about a Holocaust survivor, now 80, remembering her life. It is sad, funny, poignant, provocative. Following the weekend performances, a Holocaust survivor will speak and answer questions. It's playing Thursday-Sunday through April 25.
No, it doesn't have answers to the big questions, but it is thought provoking and definitely worthwhile.
How can people be so hateful? It is not just fear, not just pain, not just desperation. We have both sides within us and can react in inhumane ways or humane ways to the same situations. We should at least try to teach children to be kind as a value, to recognize bullying and taunting as hateful behavior. And it should not be allowed to go on in schools. How about the media? Hateful people are abusing their freedom of speech in this country to rabble rouse ignorant (and smart) people to foment prejudice. Could it happen here? Yes, it could. Let each of us try to make the world better in all things we do, big and small, and stand up to prejudice when we encounter it.
AR
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Comments are now closed.
Portland is now ninth among America's new hometowns for refugees from awful times and places all over our achy little planet. We are made a better city, a bigger us, for those who've survived ethnocide. Great humanity comes with their suffering back there, great optimism comes with their resettlement here.
As a survivor of nascent Indonesia's ethnic cleansing, and now as a neighbor worried about terribly traumatized families from Rwanda, Somalia, Iraq, Burma, Bhutan, trying to do their best in a bewildering new place, in the worst of economic times -- my wish is for Portlanders to embrace our struggling newcomers.
If, as neighbors, we see and hear what holocaust looks and sounds like, if we better understand the antecedents of ethnocide: neglect, poverty and rage -- we can begin a better response to racial violence, in Africa, Asia, Arabia, and in America.
Ending a bad thing starts with our personal experience of it, otherwise we're left to occassional OPB broadcasts on national days of remembering.
Ending our refugee families' struggles likewise requires us embracing their sorrows, opening large our hearts, freeing up a little time, to free them from their nightmares.
Ronault LS (Polo) Catalani, SE Portlander