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In our next show as part of OPB's series The Switch, we'll be looking at how hydro and wind power can complement one another. Wind is an intermittent source of energy that is difficult to store. In an integrated system, the idea is that hydroelectric power can help fill in the gaps when the wind is not blowing and back off to take full advantage of wind power when it's in abundance. Of course, it doesn't always go that smoothly.
Last year, a surplus of both wind and water in the Northwest threatened to throw the system out of balance. The Bonneville Power Administration, which is responsible for blending wind and hydro power, also has to take salmon into account when a surge in wind power means spilling water over the dams.
Do you work on a wind farm or at a hydroelectric dam? Do you live in the Columbia River Gorge, where most of the region's wind and hydro power comes from? What concerns do you have about integrating these resources in the Northwest? What makes you feel optimistic about a marriage between wind and water?
GUESTS:
- Elliot Mainzer: Executive vice president of corporate strategy at the Bonneville Power Administration
- Ken Dragoon: Research director for Renewable Northwest Project
- Charles Hudson: Public affairs manager for the Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission
Tagged as: alternative energy · energy · the switch · wind
Photo credit: Rich Anderson/ Flickr / Creative Commons
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THE FOUR LOWER SNAKE DAMS SHOULD COME DOWN
Not all dams are good. The four federal dams on the lower Snake River in southeastern Washington, for example, are driving endangered wild salmon to extinction and should be removed. Listeners should check out: http://www.lightintheriver.org, where there is a new report entitled Bright Future, which clearly shows that we can meet all of our future energy demands in the region, replace the energy produced from the four lower Snake dams to save salmon and retire coal plants with a combination of conservation, energy efficiency standards and increased development of clean renewables, such as wind and solar power. Not only will this help the salmon, but it will create thousands of new jobs in the clean energy and fishing sectors, giving a tremendous boost the Northwest economy. Some hydropower is beneficial to the region, but some of it is harming the region more than it is helping. I hope the Obama administration will continue to move forward with a clean energy agenda that doesn't compromise the restoration of endangered wild salmon in the Northwest and remove the four lower Snake dams.
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Wow! BPA is sure to get their point across on this show!
The one voice that I fear will be missing here, is one on the negative impact of the hydrosystem on endangered salmon. Dams are by far the biggest killer of endangerd Columbia-Snake salmon and the best science says that removing the four lower Snake River dams is the key to their recovery.
As, I am sure the stacked deck of guests will undoubtedly argue that point, I wanted to point listeners to the NW Energy Coalition's recently released report entitled Bright Future, which proves that we can meet the challenge of salmon recovery and lower Snake River dam removal head on. The Northwest has plenty of affordable energy conservation and renewable energy resources to serve future power needs and fulfill our climate responsibilities, boosting our economy and creating thousands of good local jobs.
Not all dams are created equal — in fact some dams cause more harm than good. We can do better, and the accelerating climate crisis tells us we must. We can power our region without burning coal, we can save endangered salmon and we can reinvigorate our economy by building a true clean-energy future.
To read the Bright Future report, please visit: http://www.lightintheriver.org/reports.html
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Wind + hydro seems like an ideal combination, but it really isn't. Right now, without much wind on the grid, the dams' operations are optimized to generate at times that produce the most valuable product: i.e., produce the maximum during the mornings and afternoons when prices are high. That means producing as little as possible at night, in order to save the water for the daytime.
But if the dams are operated to integrate wind (running high when the wind is low and throttling back when the wind is strong), then this "optimal" operation discussed above will not be followed. Instead the dams will use water at times that the wind needs it, not when prices are highest. Thus the dams' power output will be worth less. Unfortunately, a lot less, because there's a limited amount of water, and generating at the "wrong" time is a waste of money.
A typical example is the fact that often the wind picks up pretty quickly at night, and it's pretty hard to predict exactly when. To deal with this issue using hydro, the grid operator must generate pretty high all night long to be ready to ramp down when the wind comes up. This generates a lot of extra power at night, rather than saving the water for the day when it's much more valuable.
Using natural gas turbines is a better way to integrate wind, because unlike hydro, generating at night doesn't have any effect on how much they can generate during the day.
BPA Sr. VP Brian Silverstein emphasized this during a speech last month: "Everyone thought wind and hydro was a marriage made in heaven. It turns out to be in another location."
In the short term, natural gas-fired turbines are best for integrating wind. But in the long term, a "smart grid" that can control the charging rate of plugged-in electric cars, or change our hot water heaters by a few degrees, in response to variable wind generation is the least expensive way to go.
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Wind and hydro both rely on limited resources whose availability is either seasonal (hydro) or difficult to predict (wind).
We need to devise a way to adequately store the energy from these resources and make sure they are available when needed. Additionally, it is predicted that within 5 years solar will be ready for "prime time" and that stands to be a game changer as well.
In the meantime, it's best to look at what resources we have available and utilize those that are most economic and least polluting to supplement hydro and wind. From what I've heard, that means natural gas, provided that the capital costs of constructing the plants aren't prohibitive.
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Natural gas plants are pretty cheap to construct, (although the gas they burn is fairly expensive) and they emit only about 40% of the CO2 per unit of electricity than coal plants. More important, as we build more renewables and conserve more energy with more efficient appliances and buildings, the existing fleet of gas-fired turbines is operated less hours. So there is no reason to have to build more--we're facing a surplus in this region already--and most existing plants operate less than half the hours in the year. In general, gas is a decent "bridge" to a clean energy future, and new drilling techniques in the Rockies insure a very adequate supply at relatively low cost, so no need for imported LNG.
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Thanks Steve. It sounds like we have reason to be optimistic.
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Did we jump into wind energy too fast? The point that wind produced energy isn't easily integratable into the existing grid should have been addressed before the wind generators were built?
Regardless, we tend to be a ready, fire, aim society; we will eventually learn how to integrate wind-produced energy into a "smart grid".
Having lived in Hood River, and worked for a company that produced electricity from solar panels, I was impressed that almost every day from May through October, the sun shines. The Gorge and Eastern Oregon and Washington have excellent solar potential, but we need to learn how to store energy so it can be released when needed. How close are we to producing reliable and safe stored-electricity capacity?
Looking forward to the discussion. Thanks.
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In the 1970's I was a Jesuit volunteer at St. Mary's Mission/Paschal Sherman Indisn School. The Washington Public Power Supply System was in the process of constructing five Nuclear Power plants. One day on Omak Lake Road valley an engineer and BIA superintendent arrived. The idea was to pump water upstream whenever the supply side of the electric utility market exceeded the demand. Most evenings were seen as potential events. Nuclear power are more or less constant on-off without a dimmer switch. The concept of utilizing the Columbia River Dam system thus becomes a battery, as well as a generator. O Yeah this would require a very Smart Grid not just a sales gimmick for ENRON part II.
An I-5 bridge drawing proposed including wind turbine in the bridege structure. Very Interesting ) "Artie Johnson/ Laugh-In "
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More Thoughts
Trojan probably has left behind a re-useable portion of the infrastructure. Can the nuclear plant reseach of OSU be turned into a demonstration project?
The are hundreds of miles of infrasture used to distribute irrigarion water. Can't water go up-the down staircase?
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Water can be pumped back up into a storage dam for use later, so is a good way to store extra electricity if the wind is blowing very strong. Pumped storage system is an old technology, but has some problems. First, it costs a lot. About 20% or more of the electricity is wasted in each cycle from pumping inefficiencies. Second, it requires a large reservoir where folks don't mind having the water level go up and down drastically each day. Not great for having your house on the lake, or boating or fishing. There are a number of these facilities around the country, but they are costly to use and build.
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Europe has been integrating wind power into their systems for DECADES and they've somehow managed to figure it out; and continue to add turbine farms to land and sea... so obviously they see an advantage in it; and don't waste inordinate amounts of time discussing every downside ad nauseum as we Americans tend to do whenever there's something new and shiny that we're afraid to venture into.
No we are not going too fast, we're going TOO SLOW.
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Every June/July are well known high wind months in the Gorge. (People come from all over the world to windsurf in Hood River during those months.) Because there is still high water during those months as well, how will distribution infrastructure be expanded into order to handle this annual electrical surge?
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It strikes me that one of the most important components that needs to be added to our electrical grid is that of storage. What is needed, it seems to me, is a repository for generated power. In the world of information technology there are arrays of computers that are combined to act as 'mega-systems' for shared processing, information storage, etc.
What is needed are arrays of storage cells that can store large amounts of power so that power can be stored in them when it is abundant (or over-abundant) and can supply power during times when the generated supply is inadequate to meet the needs of the moment.
These arrays could be large arrays or 'storage farms' in discrete locations or as small units dispersed among residential and industrial developments. The latter arrangement would probably be better in that they would be more resilient, closer to the point of use, more easily connected to residential power generation (such as solar cells, etc.) and less prone to infrastructure outages.
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I thought I saw an article, maybe in National Geographic a few years ago, it mentioned a couple of lakes in the southeast U.S. that, when there was an excess of power, water was pumped from the lower lake to the upper. It was the only place in the U.S. where this was done at the time. It takes up real estate, but it can be done.
Bob
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How would redesigning the electrical grid and supplying new and improved electrical lines aid in the controlling of and storing of electrical output?
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I just turned on your conversation and heard the story of too much energy last July. It brought to mind that perhaps the electrical distribution system is antiquated and over burdened.
Is it true that what we hear about no investment or upgrade in the US electrical grid or infasructure since the 1970's?
Martin Brown
McMinnville
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Forecasting wind power output sounds like it won't be such a big deal once we just improve communication and coordination (basic idea behind the "smart grid"). It's much easier to forecast wind output one hour into the future than it is to forecast a whole month or day into the future.
Overall the guests addressed all of my concerns and left me much more optimistic. I also finally can see why we want a smart grid.
Thanks!
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So electricity storage is not a perfected science.. What would be required to use ALL of the available electricity (during times of surplus) by generating Hydrogen and storing energy in that form.
Even if the conversion factor is low due to inefficiencies, storing a small percentage of the available energy in this form is a step in the right direction.
Couldn't Hydrogen be stored temporarily at remote generating sites and later transported to other locations for consumption/distribution.
Possible uses:
Gas turbines - for electric generation when Hydro power is less available..
Hydrogen fuel cells..
Internal combustion engines..Any stored energy is more valuable than lost energy.. isn't it?
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in the idea of storing energy... what about compressed air? is viable on a large scale? I realize that the some efficiency is lost, but if you are putting away this potential energy at non-peak times and using it when in need, the idea of many compressed air compartments seems just as real as batteries.
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Probably the least expensive storage mechanism is through a "Smart Grid" application. Inexpensive chips can be put into hot water heaters that would communicate with the grid. These chips could change the temperature of the water--up a few degrees (not enough to cause scalding) when you need to store power, and then down a few degrees when the wind slows down which would cause all the water heaters to turn off for awhile. It sounds like a small amount, but millions of water heaters could provide literally thousands of MW-hours of storage at very low cost.
Plugged in electric vehicles could be used for the same purpose.
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What I've heard seems to agree with Steve. For example, while everyone is at work, those with batteries in their cars could be recharged by the excess solar during the day and then that energy could be used by their homes when the car is in the garage at night.
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Are there any storage technologies that BPA is also looking at? What are the time frames and expected costs of these?
Whose responsibility is it to provide a stable source of power -- BPA (transmission company) or the Indep Power Producers?
Amit.
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I heard one of your guests say that storage isn't a priority and that "just in time" production based on improved prediction and capacity projections is more likely, but at what point does energy become "cheaper" if all we ever do is produce at necessary levels vs. having excess-- a basic supply and demand question.
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Thanks for an interesting show . Decades ago , when I first recall reading about the potential of wind power , dependability issues were addressed with a theoretical kinetic battery : Picture a massive mag-lev flywheel , ( that's magnetic levitation suspension , like a Japanese bullet train ) . Match it to step-gearing : an equally derailleur . When wind is overabundant, divert that power to these ; the flywheel is revved up . The magnetic suspension efficiently conserves kinetic energy . When power is needed that massive derailleur is used in reverse to power generators . Realizing that there is front end capital required for such facilities . Has anyone seen any feasibility studies ? Is this idea being explored ?
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im listening to the discussion and the major proplem with alternative energy is the Storage Problem....The solution is an invention by Maria Skylla-kazacos.... onthe faculty of school of chemical science and engineering ...university of new south wales ...sydney ,australia....
The answer is VANADIUM...over the last decade she and her associates has developed a liquid storage battery system using vanadium ....you will find more info by going to "vanadium battery" on the internet...also look at Discover mag..october 2008 please check this out thank you D.K.Frank
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Here's a link to the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery
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How about simple cell phone connected devices on water heaters such that as wind generation goes up, the grid can tell water heaters one at a time to heat water, thus making the demand side adjustable.
That puts flexibility into the grid.
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Cost effectiveness is the issue with integration of wind power. The lowest cost resource that can balance load is demand response (DR), which is turning thermostats up/down depending on season or turning off hot water heaters (no it won't impact your shower).
BPA has been aware of these issues for years and helped produce a wind integration report in 2007, of which Elliot coordinated the writing. There is an appendix of technical options and relative costs. BPA's customers want low rates and limit the ability of Bonneville to spend money on new technology.
The average cost per kw for new Smart Grid complimentry DR is under $300 versus natural gas at $600 - $1000/kw or energy storage at $1500+ kw.
This is market transformation question of how to give customers real time control of their main enegry use, heating and cooling, HVAC). The customers can benefit from saving energy and the utilities could shave peaks and integrate wind with DR systems, such as Powermand or Tendril.
Natural gas turbines are more expensive and centralized, DR is distributed and small. The choice is between big centralized, expensive and long lead time to install resources or small, quick, inexpensive and distributed resources for wind integration.
Slides presented to NW Environmental Business Council on renewables integration: http://docs.google.com/Presentation?docid=dhh6ghv6_41hg2r7vhc&hl=en
Enabling customer participation in the Smart Grid via DR: http://docs.google.com/Presentation?docid=dhh6ghv6_0d8qb74gt&hl=en
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Website with news, commentary and technology links about Smart Grid, Demand Response, Energy Storage and Electric Vehicles: http://sites.google.com/site/energywebus/
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You have my vote.
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Thank you for asking the question about the four lower Snake River dams, but you took my first comment out of context. No way should we replace the small amount of energy produced by these dams with coal. Like I said before, we have clean, safe and salmon-friendly alternatives that will easily and affordably replace this energy. The Bright Future report proves that we can replace the majority of this with just energy conservation and efficiency.
Chuck also said that the other endangered species in the mainstem Columbia need help as well. I totally agree. And the best available science shows that removing the four lower Snake River dams would actually help these populations out by increasing river flow and keeping the river temperatures cool when salmon are migrating through the system.
And to respond to Chuck's timeline of lower Snake River dam removal — this does not have to be 20 years away. We have the opportunity now to remove these dams, save salmon, create jobs, develop a clean energy future and protect our Northwest way of life. The political landscape has changed and the Obama administration has made bold moves away from the status quo. Their engagement in the litigation over the latest BiOp is welcomed and gives me hope for our Columbia-Snake River salmon.
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It still amazes me that in the discussion of building a clean energy grid the thinking is all the same. Build big power plants and shipping power to the urban centers where the power is consumed. Insanity is defined by doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. I fail to see how these big wind farms or the hydro dams are any different than a coal or nuclear plant. Sure the generation is cleaner but certainly not any smarter, and little more sustainable.
Four years ago the city of Portland had a chance to show real leadership in this discussion when they were accepting bids for clean power generation. Instead they followed the pack and made a big investment in a wind farm in Eastern Oregon.
In my opinion the correct answer should have been and still is the agressive investment into onsite generation using a combination of wind, solar, and biofuels systems. We can use hydrogen fuel cells as a way to store energy, but a really smart grid would maximize the balance of supply and demand-ONSITE.
Oniste generations
*does not have the negative environmental impacts,
*does not have the associated costs of transmission,
*does create numerous local jobs
*does provide the experience which drives conservation efforts
*does provide a cost competitve option when transmission costs are added
Only when the onsite production capacities have been fully developed should upgrades in transmission, and consider investing in large wind farms. not very good news to large wind and power companies but a great idea for local sustainable contractors and renewable energy installers which makes up a greater portion of our business community.
Just my two cents
There are three current Linkedin discussion regarding topics related to this issue to follow.
Energy & Utilities Network
Building The 21st Century Smart Clean Energy Grid
Utility Smart Grid to Smart Homes
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I remember doing the science progect we passed electricity through a container of water and captured oxygen and hydrogen. To use the hydrogen we need lots of service stations to dispence this wonder fuel. It's my understanding that useing water and electricity on the site of a grid of small Filling Stations all obsorbing the suplus power off the larger power grid and storing it as captured hydrogen and oxygen right where it needs too be to be dispenced for autos or recombine the elements and put the power back up on the larger grid to cover the ebb after the surge. If this won't work, someone please help me understand why. Thanks for listening.
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The Northwest must develop 6500 aMW of clean energy by 2020 to meet growing regional power demands. This is possible with conservation and investments in clean energy, as highlighted in the the "Bright Future" report released by the Northwest Energy Coalition. In fact, it is possible to meet our new power needs with a combination of wind, solar, geothermal and biomass. I sincerely hope the Northwest begins investing in these technologies while re-thinking our consumption of hydroelectric power, especially the power generated on the four lower Snake River dams, which are responsible for the bulk of endangered salmon and steelhead mortality in the Columbia/Snake basin.
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Comments are now closed.
I'm looking forward to this show as the economics of electrical energy generation & capacity are difficult to grasp. At face value mixed energy supply (wind+solar), (hydro+wind) seem to be win-win, but I know it's not as simple as that. I hope you guests can clarify the issues.
I'm assuming that given these issues with Wind power...
- resources are uncertain, generation can be analyzed statistically, but not predicted precisely.
- long distance transmission reduces end power delivered,
- the unpredictability complicates 'bidding' in the market
...that the combination with hydro is looked at to produce mutual gain.
What are the potential impacts on hydroelectric system operation?
How does the actual, physical and operational integration occur?
What are the economic impacts for Hydro?
Further, it should be remembered that hydro is also not a constant supply (there are high/med/low water supply periods), and, keeping perspective, rivers and reservoirs need to be 'tapped' for a myriad of other uses - farming, flood control, etc - which determine how much water moves where and when.
During low hydro production times, additional wind generated power would mean power suppliers wouldn't have to buy from elsewhere to meet demand. During high hydro there would be excess, but overall a combined system would surely provide more flexibility, no?
Some aspects I'd like to know more about:
Why is excess power such an issue - are the transfer or storage costs too high, why not sell on?
What is network congestion? (cited as an objection to the combo)
If the combination produces a lower price level is this resisted by power companies?
Zaph Mann
The Energy Framework