SHARE THIS SHOW:
ON THE BLOG:
RELATED CONVERSATIONS:
RECENTLY ON TOL:
TOL Our Town
- A tumblr site dedicated to the people and places that make up Oregon and Southwest Washington.
TAGS:
How Religion and Politics Intersect
Today we continue our conversation about faith by exploring how religious organizations and government intersect. Of course there is a long tradition of churches providing services for people in need as part of their mission. Catholic Charities, for example, traces its history to the opening of an orphanage in New Orleans in 1727!
According to Multnomah County Commissioner Barbara Willer, all of Portland's homeless shelters for families are run by faith-based organizations. However, there seems to be a new movement afoot here, in the relatively "unchurched" Portland: government and faith-based groups are actively looking to each other for help. Multnomah County is in the midst of launching a faith-based initiative. It hopes local churches will be able to help them stay connected to their communities and provide services that they cannot.
One such group the county has spoken with is the Luis Palau Association. Kevin Palau, the son of the famed evangelical preacher, is working hard to change the face of evangelicalism. And to really work with governments to benefit local communities. His program, Season of Service, is bringing thousands of evangelical Christians into communities to help people who are homeless and hungry, to provide health care, and to restore schools. Local writer Tom Krattenmaker describes Palau as "the human symbol of the new-century evangelicalism."
Are these partnerships effective ways of providing services to a community? Or are church and state getting a little too close for comfort? What role should faith-based organizations have in the delivery of social services? Should a line be drawn? If so, where? And how?
GUESTS:
- Kevin Palau: President of the Luis Palau Association
- Barbara Willer: Multnomah County Commissioner (District 2) working to launch the County’s faith based initiative
- Tom Krattenmaker: a Portland-based writer specializing in religion in public life, a member of the USA Today Board of Contributors, and the author of “Onward Christian Athletes”
- Ann Newkirk Niven: Publisher of Sage Woman Magazine and Witches and Pagans Magazine
Photo credit: J Grindal / Creative Commons
-
"Religion should have NO ROLE in politics"
I agree. I would rather have leaders who deal in reality, than leaders who deal in the supernatural.
'Nuff said.
-
I agree too. Übersetzung Deutsch Englisch Übersetzungsagentur
-
Our Constitution has no problems with a defined role of religion in society and politics. There is FREEDOM of religion guranteed by the Constituition. And it has largely been successful for over 200 years. We have welcomed believers from thousands of peaceful religions and they have been integrated successful.
However WE CANNOT TOLERATE VIOLENCE: religious sponsored violence, violence in the name of religion, crusaders, martyrs or TERRORISM. And this is the critical issue of our generation.
Let say there is a hypothetical religion that has in its central tenets a ritual of human sacrifice, murder of a victim and cannibalism. (Their theoretical basis is that they are all part of one oversoul and particular traits or genes of the vicitim such as courage or strength can be shared and personal sacrifice begins in the circle of life--life begins, after a life ends.) Even if it is a spiritual base of this religion, IT CANNOT BE LEGALLY be permitted under the rubric of Freedom of Religion. IT violates human rights and is a crime. So we have tolerance of religion based on PEACE. WE SHOULD NEVER TOLERATE RELIGION USING VIOLENCE.
-
Yep, and remember, G W Bush declared a New Crusades in a speech to his Conservative Christian Republican base, early in his reign as the Unitary Executive created by Cheney.
-
In our time we see not state-sponsored violent revloution like Red Communism, but rather an international religious-sponsored violent revolution (Also called the Green Revolution, based on Arab flag colors) that has even reached Oregon. Oregon is the only state to have hosted an Al Quaeda Cell complete with target practice and bomb making training. We have a PDX mosque linked with plastic bomb residue. FBI investigation continue actively.
In the past 30 years, 95% of world wide terrorism is related to Radical Islam. Islam has veins of violence. The Koran gives prescriptions for stoning(ie. Death by rock throwing not MJ), amputation for stealing, and sundry whipping for varous misdemeanors. In 30 Islamic countries, religious conversion from Muslim to another faith is a crime of Apostasy, punishable by death. Talking favorably about the Bible, Buddhism Vinaya Pitaka, or even Wiccan beliefs in an Arab country is punishable by death for prosletyzing. Drawing a stick figure cartoon of Muhummad is punishable by death. If my house burned down, my library consumed with my copy of my Koran and my other religious text references, I will get a Death Threat for the burning of my Koran Copy. Singing Christmas Carols or Kumbaya will get Death Threats. Believing in Santa Claus and decorating a Xmas in Saudi Arabia will get death threats.
There is a choice put forth by the Koran: Convert or Enslavement.
And now there are active threats to Americans traveling to Europe, but there has always been long standing threats in travel to Arab countries, Muslim countries, and countries struggling with violent Green Revolution.
Critical Survival Skill: Recognize a threat when you see it. Violence and Terrorism has NO role in MODERN SOCIETY. And Freedom of Religion cannot be a bridge to VIOLENCE and the flaggarant violations of Human Rights.
Let Islam be a Peaceful Religion, But We Cannot be Tolerant if it is otherwise.
-
Foolishness.
As President Obama has said, it's "just us."
http://chuckcurrie.blogs.com/chuck_currie/2010/09/president-obama-its-just-us.html
We need to be better educated about Islam in America and use 9/11 as an opportunity for the work of reconciliation. This anti-Islamic rhetoric is harmful and has no place. As President Bush said, Islam IS a religion of peace.
- Rev. Chuck Currie
http://www.chuckcurrie.com
-
Rev. Currie,
I would agree that Islam is a peaceful religion. But we must reconcile in our minds and hearts the every day headlines of suicide bombing, IEDs, Mosque and church bombing, Islamic militia conducting population terrorism, Sudanese Janjaweed gunman conducting ethnic cleasing and rape, and death threats to cartoonist.
If a passenger plane is hijacked and blown up today, if a building explodes from a car bomb, if an airport or stadium is underseige by gunman sniping innocent civilians, if a train track is blown up derailing and killing dozens, or if a church is explodes in your community killing dozens.....who would YOU suspect?
We have to use basic logic. It probably is not the Pennsylvania Amish Community. Or the IRA. Is it possible that virulent extremist Islamic terrorist groups are attempting to advance broader goals of Islam? Magical thinking that 'all religions are good' will not bring back the 2900 dead Americans from 9/11. We have to live with the effects of terrorism in the New Millenium. We do not have to accept victimhood.
Not all Muslims are Terrorists. But in our time, All Terrorists are Muslim. We have to combine with our Muslim brothers to make this fact no longer true. Jihad, or Holy War, is being waged violently in our time. This is a secret that is hidden in plain sight. We should wage a war agaist Violent Jihad. Spiritual Jihad is something we can live with.
Read the international front page headlines for today. Then go to the library and read it one year ago. And 5 years ago. And 10 years ago. And 20 years ago. Middle East violent struggle and Radical Islamic Terrorism is the persistent headline. We cannot keep living in denial; we have to confront violence today, not cover it up. OR it will be chronic worldwide terrorism that will be passed on to our children and their children. And death by terrorism will be as routine as death by car crash.
DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT.
-
Politics as practiced today is nothing short of a Religion; choose your sect and lock step into the Dogma of your choice, do not question, do not think.
-
To paraphrase Clausewitz: "Religion is War by another means".
Why do you think the slaveholders used it against the slaves?
-
Election Year Pledge For Clergy
http://chuckcurrie.blogs.com/chuck_currie/2010/09/election-year-pledge-for-clergy.html
The best modern statement that seeks to clarify the role of the church in public life comes from the United Methodist Church. It reads:
The United Methodist Church believes that the church has the moral imperative to act for the common good. For people of faith, therefore, there are no political or spiritual spheres where their participation can be denied. The attempt to influence the formation and execution of public policy at all levels of government is often the most effective means available to churches to keep before humanity the ideal of a society in which power and order are made to serve the ends of justice and freedom for all people. Through such social action The United Methodist Church generates new ideas, challenges certain goals and methods, and help rearrange the emphasis on particular values in ways that facilitate the adoption and implementation of specific policies and programs that promote goals that are congruent with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This task of the Church is in no way in contradiction with our commitment to a vital separation of Church and State. We believe that the integrity of both institutions is best served when both institutions do not try to control the other. Thus, we sustain with the first amendment to the Constitution that: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” We live in a pluralistic society. In such a society, churches should not seek to use the authority of government to make the whole community conform to their particular moral codes. Rather, churches should seek to enlarge and clarify the ethical grounds of public discourse and to identify and define the foreseeable consequences of available choices of public policy.
- Rev. Chuck Currie
http://www.chuckcurrie.com
-
I heard an interesting interview right after 9-11 with several religious scholars from the 3 Abrahamic traditions. They spoke candidly about when there were times of war and competition, and when there were time of peace and cooperation between differing faiths throughout history. Their conclusion was unanimous: "Let the competition in good works begin!!!!!!".
People are going to come up with 'beliefs' to fill in the certainty gap regardless of whether there is religion. They will form gangs to fill there need for community if none exists. 'Gangs' of people will compete with other 'gangs' to solidify their own identity and group cohesion. The grouping, believing, and competing is going to happen anyway. Why would we not want to use this to do some good in the world? Others will surely use it to do bad.Atheist have beliefs too. Let's see if they can form a group and serve more homeless than the Catholics can.
Let the competition in good works begin!
-
There is a lot of good that can still come from 9/11.
A reflection on 9/11: Yearning for good from tragedy
Right now we seem to be allowing religious extremists from all faiths to dominate.
- Rev. Chuck Currie
http://www.chuckcurrie.com
-
Let us get this straight, atheists do not have beliefs that are common to atheists. Unless by beliefs you are suggesting that not believing in something is some kind of belief itself. It is like suggesting that people who don’t believe in Santa Claus share some useful commonality. Atheists are not an organized group that must compete with the religious---they are not another religion, they are no religion at all.
-
Put another way; organizations of all sizes i.e., gangs, tribes, corporations, religeous denominations, political parties, nation states, all have potential energy. Think of dynamite...., or better yet, a nail gun. The intended purpose of the devise does not preclude other potential uses. Short-sighted, self-interested people are always part of the mix.
We can argue that Christianity is generally a little bit safer design of nail gun than Islam, but it is silly to argue that people/governments should not use nail guns to build houses.
A 'nail gun' not used for building, tends to get used for other puposes.
-
The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Someone tell me why it's even a discussion to have or not to have prayers in public (tax payer supported) schools. Do I have to say it, obviously "no, duh."
The non-profit tax status of Churches and tax deductions allowed for contributions clearly violate the seperation notion. The tradition of having to swear an oath on a Bible in a court of law contradicts it. Swearing on a Bible to uphold the Constitution seems a bit ironic.
I guess more germaine to this program let me ask: What's the heck up with taxpayer supported faith based grants and initiatives? In Multnomah County for CRYING OUTLOUD. What could be more obvious a violation of the Establishment Clause? I would expect the churches to have their hands out but don't people in goverment have to take at least an intro level civics class? Bush started them. But Obama, the Constitutional lawyer/professor for Pete's sake should know better. He not only did not eliminate them. He expanded the funding! Now it seems as if they are legit. Jeez, mercy, mercy, where's that dammed ACLU when you need them?
-
The White House Office on Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships under President Obama is much different than the office President Bush operated. First, the office does not give out money. Churches compete through a competitive process with other agencies that provide services through other federal agencies These grant recipients are not allowed to use money for religious purposes but to provide programs, such as shelter for homeless families. The government has throughout history worked with the faith community on such partnerships. President Obama has simply designed a better program to coordinate efforts and to help those in the faith community interested in providing services to become better integrated into the system. Learn more at: http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ofbnp/blog I have asked Multnomah County to undertake a similar effort on the local level. - Rev. Chuck Currie http://www.chuckcurrie.com
-
For the record I don't buy there's no support.
But, for the sake of discussion let offer these questions:
If I am giving to the County as a charitable vehicle how much do they take out for administrative expenses?
I'd guess 40 percent. Then on top of that the Church has to take some to too. My guess is a legitimate 10 to 15 percent?
Since taxes are NOT voluntary. People are forced to support causes they may not believe in.
How about lower my taxes, cut out the middle man, and let me choose my charity?Now, when the some Charity calls one can just say I have paid my taxes. The government is responsible for that problem.
I won't get into the track record of governments solving social problems. OMG, "Just say NO!" -
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
And yet they have made laws giving respect to religions. Obviously un-Constitutional laws.
-
The Politics Of Jesus: A Podcast Sermon On Isaiah 3:13-15, Isaiah 10:1-4, and Luke 4:14-2
http://unitedchurchofchrist.blogspot.com/2007/11/politics-of-jesus-podcast-sermon-on.html
- Rev. Chuck Currie
http://www.chuckcurrie.com
-
Although it is probably fair to say that most terrorism taking place in the world can be tied to islamic extremism, the root motivators for that terrorism is more likely political and social elements. Religion is the vehicle but the engine powering it is more likely poor access to food, clean water, reliable energy, lack of jobs and little to no prospect for the future - especially if you are a young impressionable youth, already rooted in islam from birth.
Do not forget, some of the most horrific acts of terror to take place in America were conducted by chrisitan extremists - namely abortion bombings and murders.
-
The poorest people in the world with the worst colonial legacy and biting mind-blowing poverty and famine are the Sub Saharan African countries of Botswana, Congo, Liberia, and Zimbawe. Some Arab nations are swimming in cash with their princes flying around in 747 jets outfitted with a bowling alley, Starbucks coffee bar and jacuzzi.
The next time a plane is hijacked, will you blame the Zimbaweans? Or Arab Fundamentalist?
-
"Or Arab Fundamentalist? jacob — Thu Oct. 7th 9:33a.m."
You understand of course, that the West created Saudi Arabia out of a bunch of wandering nomads, and paid them all of their wealth from Oil Dollars, and now this Frankensteinish creation has come back to bite us in the butt.
So much for the Free Market!
-
Season of Service and similar activities are, I think, a genuine effort on the part of some Christians to distance themselves from the whole "Religious Right" movement that hijacked Evangelicalism for the last 40+ years. It's an effort to re-articulate the idea that service is one of the main parts of Christ's teaching. Unfortunately, Christianity has become synonymous with Right Wing politics in the US - a lot of us Christians don't want to be associated with that anymore.
-
A few years ago I had an Evangelical Christian tell me that they don't want to live in a democracy in the US, they want to live under a King. And he said that they reject the teachings of Jesus because he was too feminine. They reject the teachings "Even as you treat the least of these..." and "being your brothers keeper". They believe in a strongman type of threatening and punishing "God-King", not a feminist, loving and forgiving "God".
And of course they believe in and promote The Rapture, in which every Evangelical disappears up to some supernatural "Heaven" and all other life on Earth is destroyed and burned up.
No thanks, no way!
-
"And he said that they reject the teachings of Jesus"
If someone claiming to be a "Christian" says that they reject the teachings of Jesus (the founder of the faith), well that person is (at minimum) terribly confused. It sounds like that person was actually articulating a type of Odinism (Norse religion which emphasizes strength - lots of white supremacists fall into this camp) instead of Christianity. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that there are a lot of folks out there claiming to be Christians who have no idea what Christ actually taught.
-
"...well that person is (at minimum) terribly confused."
Ayup!
He is a Conservative Christian Republican living in the US South.
-
I agree with many posters - religion should have no direct, organizational role in delivering government services...
And I'm heartened by recent polls suggesting that close to 40% of Americans under 30 declare themselves as having no religious affiliation whatsoever.
I echo Emily Harris here: who cares what your particular imaginary gods or goddesses (supposedly) want or think..? It's irrelevant, based on utter, evidence-free nonsense, and the source of plenty of unfounded prejudice against other Americans...
The sooner we ditch these groups, and their supernatural superfriends (and there are so many: Jesus, Mary, the "Holy Spirit," Mohammed, the Great Emperor Klaktu, the Angel Moroni, etc...) - and all the associated homophobia, misogyny, scientific illiteracy, child abuse, violence, etc. - the better it will be for everyone...
-
That's funny you picked up on that phrase - we did talk about exactly how I phrased that question on the air. I asked "what does it matter" what Jesus thinks about a government? Tom rephrased as "who cares" and I reiterated what I actually said. A bit of a difference, in tone and motivation, perhaps.
-
>That's funny you picked up on that phrase - we did talk about exactly how I phrased that question on the air.
I think that question captured the essence of this issue: literally, why should we care what someone's imaginary supernatural god or goddess happens to think - about anything?
Why do the religious get a free pass when it comes to providing evidence for their (extraordinary) beliefs - which are often used to justify prejudice against other Americans..?
For example...just because the Emperor Klaktu, or the Angel Moroni, or the Holy Spirit reportedly hates lesbians, we're supposed to literally amend our state's founding document to selectively deny lesbians (and gays) the basic civil right of marriage?
Bring out this Jesus, this Mohammed, this Hera - I'd like to discuss this further. Oh wait - none of these supernatural superfriends actually exist. They're just a cover for your prejudice.
So again: "Who cares what Jesus et al think about government?"
And why aren't the religious asked (by you, for example, on "Think Out Loud") to provide actual support or evidence for their unfounded (and, let's face it, patently ridiculous) beliefs?
-
I find that when I finally get around telling people that I am Christian they are surprised because I don’t preach or demand that they come to my faith or "see the light". I figure it is up to God and the individual to find one another. I am told to serve, love others and the rest will happen as it should happen. It is nice to represent just by being me. The reason I love this place is because most people can find the good in one another. I won't demand that people find God and no one demands that I become a Vegan. LOL
-
>I figure it is up to God
But which one? Hermes? Hera? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Cheesus Christ (from Glee)? The Scientologist alien Emperor Klaktu?
Religion is a lot of nutty, bogus, supernatural nonsense - though a personal "God" (whichever one - or Ones? - that might be) is so often referenced to deny gays and lesbians basic civil rights, women access to healthcare and education, etc...
Believe and express whatever you like - our human-made Constitution guarantees this right - but evidence free supernatural musings should not determine, for example, which citizens have access to healthcare options, or basic civil rights.
-
All religion is is a belief in a supernatural being.
Service to our fellow man is Secular Humanism.
-
Service to our fellow man was taught by many religions long before there was Secular Humanism.
Unfortunately, in the case of Christianity, "service to your fellow man" was forgotten when the Church decided that it wanted political power. Separation of Church and state is good for the Church because without it the Church loses it's way as it becomes too intertwined with Politics (this is what happened to the Evangelical part of the Church in the US over the last 40 years or so). The Church lost it's way and now is more closely associated with a certain political agenda.
-
The problem with what Jesus allegedly taught is that no one knows for sure what he taught. No one interpretation has any more grounds for, or claim on, 'truth' then another. Faith is a perfect recipe for no accountability. Really, faith based ‘extremists’ are conceptually no more extreme then the religious masses, they just go against what is the average. But, the extremists or the moderates are no more right or rational then each other. So people who claim it is only the extremists that are the problem are missing the boat, they simply don’t get the complexity of faith. The moderates try to distance themselves from the extremists, but the moderates are just as extreme as the extremists, there are just more of them, and the moderates inherently determine the average, which is obviously why they are called moderates.
-
P.S. Sorry, I intended to place that comment below the previous skeptictank comment. So, sorry.
-
"Service to our fellow man was taught by many religions long before there was Secular Humanism."
Humans served their fellow man long before it was recognized as Secular Humanism, otherwise we would not have survived and developed into families, groups, then tribes, etc.
I suspect that we helped our fellow man long before religions developed.
Secular Humanism is what is common to and connects all of humanity.
-
Religions offer a team to belong to, with a subtext of uniting against the alternate teams. In the United States, as well as in Iran, religiosity is being used as a baseball bat, kneecapping any person not on the team. Praying out loud on street corners has become an obnoxious norm, an insistence that the personal belief of a club can dictate to the entire population.
There are times when we must sit quietly while someone prays for a group. Usually the content of the prayer involves control of the listeners, telling them how they are supposed to believe and act - in other words, no an attempt at communication to a god, but group dominance.
Historically, those wielding the baseball bat of Christianity have caused death worldwide - how can they rationalize the commandment not to kill, or Christ's specific message to turn the other cheek? The answer to this is that few church members are interested in actual doctrine, but only in social acceptance and in some cases, survival.
-
Rev. Currie, meet Tom Ford. I am sure both of you will have much to discuss with respect, civility and dignity.
And we will solve the issue of Existence of God and the World's Best Religion once and for all.
-
The two religions that should be banned from being involved in any government activity are Democrats and Republicans! More evil has been done by these two religious institutions then all the others!
-
Does the County or City care whether they give public money to organizations that discriminate and promote discrimination against, for example, gay and lesbian residents?
Don't the County and City have restrictions on working with contractors that discriminate on the basis of sex, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc..?
Why is it OK to fund Catholic Charities, which works hard to promote violence and discrimination against gays and lesbians (e.g., the Catholic Archdiocese was the number one financial supporter of Measure 36)?
-
In Yamhill County, we have a group (the Community Compassion Brown Baggers) of over 80 different agencies, churches and other organizations who work together to assist the less fortunate. We meet every Monday to share ideas (plan events, fundraising efforts, brainstorming solutions), encouragement and resources (TP, diapers, school supplies, clothing, blankets, emergency winter shelter, etc).
We work very well together when we keep the focus on unity – that which unites, rather than that which divides us. For this reason, we do not discuss theology or politics at our meetings. It is amazing to work side by side with folks who may have wildly different opinions and beliefs than I do, but we’re all in this community together and we need to set aside our differences to accomplish the work set before us. For example, or inclement weather shelters are usually church buildings, but they are staffed by community volunteers trained by county specialists.
-
Greetings -
'Faith-based' services are symptomatic of Americans not being willing to pay taxes for the services they expect from their government.
Any association between religion & the governement is antithetical to the first ammendment.
The present association is government compromising its obligation to remain absolutely secular in its services to the populace in order to avoid raising taxes to support such services.
It must be stopped, as the governement cannot continue to compromise its secular status.
Where will 'faith-based' services stop? Road-buiding? Tax form processing?
- Russ J (Beaverton)
-
As a practicing Pagan I was very pleased to see my religion represented on the show today. (And it an eloquent, educated way to boot!) I couldn't have agreed more with Ann's comments. :)
Kristina Brewington, Albany Oregon
-
Yes, I want separation of church and state. The government should be completely neutral when it comes to groups that promote “ faith” as a virtue.
To my mind faith is not a virtue. “Faith” is defined as accepting something as true even if there is no evidence to support such a belief. This is irrational.
Ideally the government should oppose all types of irrational thinking. But we have seen the utter failure of the Soviet Union’s efforts to do this. For reasons I don’t fully understand, outright opposition to faith groups only seems to make them stronger.
The U.S. tradition of being neutral towards groups claiming that faith-based belief is a virtue seems to have been the best policy for promoting rational evidence-based thinking.
All levels of government should actively avoid entanglements with the “Faith-based community.”
The “Season of Service” plan being discussed on the morning of 7 October 2010 is a bad idea. -
I was surprised to hear that all of the Portland's homeless shelters for families are run by faith-based organizations. My own secular charitable organization, the Humanists of Greater Portland, has donated to Transition Projects for many years. I gave them a call, and they said they serve homeless individuals, but not families. I guess it's time to ramp up secular services for the homeless to include families!
-
Comments are now closed.
Religion should have NO ROLE in politics. OUR GREAT NATION is not a Theocracy (unlike Iran, whose official name is The Islamic Republic of Iran). OUR GREAT NATION is a Republic, although many people mis-characterize it as a Democracy.
As for the faith of the candidates, it is unimportant to me in deciding who to vote for. I vote for the man or woman whose position on the issues best reflects MY position on the issues. Some people who shall remain nameless idiots seem to have a heart attack over the allegation that President Obama, our duly elected leader, is a Muslim. If he were SO WHAT? JFK was a <gasp!> Catholic. Is anyone aware that there is indeed a (Sunni) Muslim serving in The House of Representatives (Keith Ellison, D-MN-5th District)? Nobody seems to be having a coronary about that.
My point is that a candidate's religion or faith should have no bearing on whether they are qualified to serve the people of This Great State or of OUR GREAT NATION.