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It might seem like an oxymoron in the rainy Northwest, but when it comes to renewable resources solar is actually Oregon's most abundant. But it's also the most expensive — so expensive that Jeff King of the Northwest Power and Conservation Council says its difficult "to justify spending lots of money on solar built in the Northwest when it so obviously appears to be more suitable for the Southwest." King asserts: "We've got much lower cost renewables available for development." But even so, the state has invested heavily in recruiting solar companies.
On the residential level, some individuals say it's the right thing to do irrespective of cost. For instance, Jennifer Bies took out a home equity line of credit to foot the $24,000 bill for her Portland bungalow's solar water heater and photovoltaic panels. While the system has yet to pay for itself, Bies says a combination of state, federal and Energy Trust rebates and incentives will significantly reduce her initial outlay over time. And more help may be on the way. A bill under consideration (pdf) in the state legislature would create a pilot program to make investor-owned utilities buy back energy produced from new solar panels at a set price for both commercial and residential customers.
So do the long-term savings of solar justify the investment? And what about lower-income individuals who may be unable to write the big check required to purchase the systems? Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Dan Nocera says research he is doing into the storage of solar power may help alleviate its costs.
What's the best and most cost effective kind of solar energy? And how should we fund it?
Have you outfitted your home or business with solar energy? Did the cost and energy savings deliver as promised? What's the best policy for the state on solar power?
GUESTS:
- Jennifer Bies: Portland resident who purchased a solar water heater and photovoltaic panels for her home
- Doug Boleyn: Commercial solar program manager at Energy Trust of Oregon and a member of the board of directors of Solar Oregon
- Dan Nocera: Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy at Massachusetts Institute of Technology
- Bob Beisner: Vice President at SolarWorld Industries America and a member of the Oregon Solar Energy Industries Association board
Tagged as: solar power · the switch
Photo credit: Jimmy Joe / Flickr /
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There are a few things that make solar very viable right now in Oregon.
1. Net metering
2. Great tax credits and incentives
3. If you haven't heard yet.... Yes! Oregon has enough sun to make solar viable.
Net metering is the game changer that makes Solar very viable in Oregon. Net metering allows you to send excess power back into the grid and get credits for it. This allows you to "bank' credits on sunny summer months that you can use on rainy winter months.
Incentives and tax Credits can cover up to 70% of the cost of Residential systems and up to 85% of the cost for Commercial systems.
Oregon has a better solar resource than Germany, one of the biggest solar markets in the world. Our long sunny summer days produce a great deal of solar and due to net metering, (Explained above) we can make excellent use of our great Solar summers.
-Michael VanDerwater
Executive Director - Solar Oregon
www.solaroregon.org
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If price is the main consideration here, then I must say that you couldn't find a more pro-active area and state to help offset the cost of Solar renewable energy. As an installer, I'm forced to know how to finance these systems as well as show a decent rate of return on the products. The current federal administration has helped open the door to even more funding for renewables like solar, but it doesn't help with the initial sting of the price. This stuff isn't cheap. But consider that we in this country purchase a fraction of the amount of solar panels that countries like Germany and Japan currently purchase. The product will always go where the demand is highest. We in this country haven't been progressive in our quest to convert from fossil fuels to alternative energies like solar and wind until recently. This country almost always was at the fore-front of technology and it's inception into day to day life, and yet even though this country built the first working solar cell, we are very minor consumers of this product on a world wide scale. We are behind other countries in our ability to produce good quality products. And now we are paying a price for our procrastination.
So, What does it cost? How soon does it pay for itself? Well, friends, feel lucky that you live in this state because we are well funded at the state level and our power companies are also helping to offset the cost by offering a set amount of money per watt to install this stuff. Why would they do this? Because we currently PURCHASE most of the power we use from other states that are using COAL-FIRED PLANTS to produce our power. The truth is that our dams on our rivers actually produce less than 20% of the power we in this state consume. So, it makes sense for them to give you a bit of money to help take the demand off of the already taxed power grid.
In the end, with all the financing available, the tax benefits and accelerated depreciation available to business', and incentives that the power companies provide to business' and home-owners alike, a typical solar array that produces about 1/3 to 1/2 of a home-owner's power consumption can pay for itself in about 3 1/2 to 5 years. And considering that this stuff has to be warrantied for 25 years, that's a pretty decent investment.
josh.dpi.solutions@gmail.com
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There are solar calculators through the Energy Trust of Oregon that clearly show that your view on the residential payback is patently incorrect.
http://www.energytrust.org/solar/residential/calculator.html
The residential energy tax credit is the biggest limiter. At $3/watt, it is capped at $6000. A 2 kW system.
The net cost in my PGE territory for the average 2 kW system is $7580. With net metering, the savings per year is $184. That's 41 years at our current energy costs. Granted, the rates will increase, but...
For a business, it is quite a different story. A 50% business energy tax credit (BETC), Energy Trust of Oregon incentives, 30% federal energy tax credit, property tax exemptions and accelerated depreciation of the system. Easily paid off in the 5 year period that the BETC is paid off. But, as I mentioned in another post, 80% of the BETCs are using 3rd parties.
We are investing tax dollars in the investor class. BAD POLICY! Support HB 3069 for a feed-in tariff.
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There is a very simple relationship that the human race must understand about energy – Supply and Demand:
“Essentially all the energy used by humans came from the sun, only geothermal energy is not a direct solar resource. Non-renewable energy sources, oil, coal and natural gas take between 20 and 100 million years to develop and we are using them up 100,000 times faster then they are created. The world is running out of these resources and within the next 20 years, the world will shift to renewable energy sources because of demand and environmental concerns. Solar energy is the most efficient renewable energy source and the world must implement it effectively if humanity is to survive, PERIOD.”
Tod LeFevre, P.E.
Hood River OR
Common Energy LLC
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How much will installing a $20,000 solar system increase the value of my home? In the past the answer to this was zero. Today some new programs are just begining that will allow homeowners to realize "Green Equity" for home energy improvements. Home energy scoring programs are being developed that will provide home owners with an efficiency rating for their homes. Think MPG for your car except this is for your home. More efficeint homes will sell for more money allowing homeowners to realize savings from energy efficient upgrades.
As smart grid technology comes on line, renewable energy production will allow for a more robust and secure energy grid. Add to that the unknown "total cost" of the power we now use and renewable energy production becomes viable for many reasons.
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I recently had a professional evaluation for a 1400-watt PV system (i.e., small system) on my home. The system would produce roughly $140 worth of electricity each year (that is about 15% of our home's annual usage of about $1000), and the complete system would cost ~$12,000 (including installation). After state and federal tax credits the residual cost would be ~$4,300, and the "simple" payback time (calculated at a rate of $0.08/kWh) would be 31 years (that's right 31 years).
Despite my sincere desire to install this system, it is really hard for me to justify an up-front, out-of-pocket expense of $12,000, for a system that will replace only 15% of my annual electricity usage, and which will require ~30 years to just pay itself back (fully, at today's rates). The tax credits (residential in my case) are nevertheless substantial, and "doing the right thing" has its own merit, but these considerations can only carry so much weight in a spending decision of such magnitude. I have reluctantly concluded that despite its environmental merit, solar technology remains more of a "rich man's toy" than a real solution for the majority of Oregonians. At today's price, it is inconceivable to me that solar can be more than a novelty to be enjoyed only by the affluent.
Will somebody please prove me wrong?
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Interestingly, this is the first "go to" for a lot of people considering the decision to install solar. I don't believe "rich man's toy" is a fair representation of the current cost of entry into solar renewables. As demonstrated in other threads on this subject. There indeed exists an element of social responsibility when it comes to adopting new methods of harnessing renewables.
I agree that it would be nice if these systems were ultra-cost effective and left no residual costs for the adopter to bear - I am certain that day will come. However, the social responsiblitity falls on those with the means - and there are plenty to get this industry up and running. Another point to ponder, for those with the means as applied to "home improvements", how often does the ROI or estimated payback calculation occur when considering improvements such as granite vs. laminate, hardwood vs. linoleum, etc. This argument carries into all aspects of our consumer lives - driving vs. public transportation, eating out vs. packing food, buying food vs. growing food - the point is we ALL make choices that reflect our values as applied to the comforts and conveniences we select in our culture.
Given the social issues surrounding our dependence on fossil fuels - is this really a justifed argument. I personally would have a difficult time demonstrating my angst over the current cost of renewables if I had a Starbuck's in one hand and a cell phone in the other. Social responsibility is the right response as we all will reep the benefits of our collective actions. Changing our current methods of energy delivery and use will not occur on its own - it will take each one of us acting individually. Both the state and feds have responded as well as manufacturers such as SolarWorld and PV Powered.
A better exercise for each of us to do before calulating a payback period on renewables would be to add how much of our income is directed towards consumable items (Starbucks, McDonalds, Pepsi, Budweiser, Plasma TV's, Tivo, Nike shoes, Ipods, Iphones, etc., etc., etc.) over the same 30-year period. I think social responsibility is not nearly as expensive as its reputation. It just might make each of us alter our spending habits over time - yes, I know that hurts.
Maybe this is a job for Wyden & Kennedy to help craft the message that this is the socially trendy thing to do and ...
Just Do It.
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You are absolutely correct that the current incentives (which include a 30% federal income tax credit that is no longer capped) require an extremely long payback. This is not true for the incentives for businesses. Businesses have a 50% business energy tax credit. Turns out that 80% of businesses are requiring a third party to either buy the credit in a lump sum or in partnership over the 5 years the credit is given. That's because businesses don't have the tax liability or priorities to invest in solar.
Besides that, these credits erode our general fund. And we hide the cost of renewable energy--creating less of an incentive to conserve.
But we need to make these investments. That's why we need to push for a bill that is Salem right now. HB 3039 is a bill for a pilot "feed-in tariff" that amortizes the payback over 15 to 20 years. This is the German model for financing renewable energy and has led to the success of that country as the world's leader in renewable energy. Summit Blue analyzed different financing models for solar energy for New Jersey to comply with their 2.1% by 2021 renewable portfolio standard. The feed-in tariff was the cheapest model for ratepayers.
We need to support HB 3039 to get a feed-in tariff and join Vermont as the 2nd state in the nation.
Go to the website for the Portland Alliance for Democracy and click on Democratizing the Grid.
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Solar energy is just the beginning. Our thought process is shifting from fossil fuels and nuclear power to “greener” energy solutions. Solar power may carry a heftier price, but it certainly is cleaner and using a source that has no immediate extinction in the near future. With all of the benefits being offered by the State of Oregon and Federal government, it makes sense to apply all of this knowledge to our building standards now. If we had been thinking green all along, imagine how much more in balance our world would be now. Building Solar for a cleaner world.
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I have been an Oregon contractor for 24 years and have spent some time looking into Solar. I know Sun is not one of our biggest commodities however, when I looked at Europe and especially Germany I felt that Oregon could benifit from Solar. Solar is very big in Germany and it has the same basic climate that Oregon does. They seem to do well with it. I have to admit that I'm not sure of the cost differance. I still think Solar has a fit here in Oregon.
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sorry to post within this stream, but I'm attempting commenting about World Have Your Say, as was suggested at the end of the adoptive services show.
Though I have made efforts, I have rarely been able to listen through a single hour of WHYS. Too much of the show struggles with technical communications, phone lines, accents.... Too much of the show depends on opinions from the most random of people. Too much of the show sounds like English Parliament, where the loudest and most assertive voice dominates. Too much of the show is the personality of the commentator or host. Though I respect the concept of the show and its promotion of democratic expression, I simply have to turn it off after TOL to return to OPB radio latter in the day.
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I have watched as we have struggled with the idea of solar power since the late '70's. The argument about what is cheaper is a waste of time. Yes, it's true gas, coal and oil are much cheaper sources of electricity. The reason is that those delivery systems are already in place and the price of kilowatt/hour doesn't take into consideration the start up cost of refinement and delivery. I can imagine that the people who sold matches and candles were mad as hell when electricity was being wired into homes for lighting and heating.
We as a nation must change our attitudes and lower our demand for electrical power. By weatherizing our homes, replacing our old appliances and upgrading to the new technologies we can slowly move away from the polluting sources of electrical energy.
People will spend $20,000 to add on to their house, remodel their kitchen or redocorate their living spaces. They spend this money because it adds value to their investment. This enhancement that made them money just sits there collecting dust. Imagine by installing a solar panel array, you add value to your property and you produce electricity that slowly pays back that initial investment for it's entire lifespan.
I am constantly talking to people who are excited about renewable technologies from 8th graders to retirees. They want to reduce their demand for foreign oil and reduce the emissions for electrical production. We have to drown out the negative comments from individuals who don't believe any new technology will work and will constantly find, or make up, holes in those theories. Keep educating the young minds (and those that are young at heart) about the renewable energy market that will create good paying jobs to design, build and install these systems. Always keep a good stock of matches and candles for the others as well. Peace.
dbaker
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Store and Transport Solar Energy
- Safely
- Efficiently
- Without climate-altering gases
- 10km X 10km collection area = GLOBAL USE
Most of us, when we think about solar energy, think hot water, or photovoltaic electricity.
There's another side to Solar: High-Temperature. Concentrate solar energy (yes-smoke and mirrors) and we get large amounts of energy at the highest temperature possible on earth.
Solar Chemistry is the form of solar energy that CAN store energy "for a rainy day", or ship it to Iceland.
Here's how it works:
Solar energy, incident on our planet at about 1 kW/square meter (think 1 hairdryer per beach towel), is concentrated with mirrors to produce temperatures as high as 3000C; but more commonly in the 1000-2000C (1800-3500F) range.
Use this energy to perform a chemical reaction; the products of that reaction represent stored solar energy. We know how to store chemical products; we're not so advanced when it comes to storing electricity or heat.
The most promising reaction is the zinc-hydrogen cycle. Zinc will split water to produce hydrogen; the oxygen from the water reattaches to the zinc to form zinc oxide. The zinc oxide is returned to the high-temperature solar reactor, where the oxygen is removed, and the zinc is shipped to a place without sunshine, or used at night to provide a continuous source of energy.
BUT-zinc can also be used in a zinc-air battery with a very high energy-density. There are buses in Israel running on zinc-air systems.
The best news is that systems like this can operate without releasing ANY carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.
To Reiterate:
1) There is a way to capture solar energy, store that energy and transport it from sunny areas to areas like the "Pacific Northwest Winter" climate.
2) The technology to do this is well-developped and can operate without producing climate-altering gases.
http://www.solarpaces.org/
Jean Murray
Former US representative to IEA for Solar Chemistry and Director of Research, CNRS Solar Research for Materials and Processes (PROMES)
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Great idea Jean, just one flaw that I see. The Pacific Northwest has a very good solar index to produce solar energy. Actually it is much higher than most of Germany. We produce excellent Pinot here as well due to the good sun index and cool evenings. We are trying to fix the stereotypes that are attached to our state. I was at a Career fair with my tiny solar array trainer that was producing 3 amps of current with many clouds in the sky and mist in the air. The High School students who came over didn't believe that Oregon could produce any solar energy at all and I blew their minds with our demonstration. It doesn't always rain in Oregon and it isn't always sunny either. But we do have the capacity to produce our own solar power.
Thanks
dbaker
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PV Watts calculates the energy from PV ind different parts of the country.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS/version1/
Portland metro residents can anticipate ~1000 kW/h for each 1 kW system put on the roof. Redmond Oregonians benefit with ~1400 kW/h for each kW.
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I live in Goldendale Washington and "off the grid" for the last 15 years. Our first place had a small solar system and we currently have a fairly large one (2,100 watts). For 9 months out of the year the solar system provides all of our power needs (including pumping water from our well) and the remaining 3 months we need some help from a generator to charge our batteries. The high cost of installing grid power to our remote location and federal tax credits made it an easy choice for us to be solar powered and to "do the right thing" for the planet.
This is not the case for most households. Power is readily available and fairly cheap in the Paciific Northwest. Because of this, for many people renewable energy is expensive and impractical. Federal and state government must step up and provide incentives to individuals and businesses who want to do the right for the planet and penalize those who don't. Strong cap and trade programs and individual tax credits and rebates for renewable power installations are essential if we are to have any hope of combating the disasteroues effects of global climate change.
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thank you for your comment and your lifestyle choices.
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My wife and I live in a 1920'sl bungalow in NE Portland and have done conservation measures and had solar PV panels installed using Energy Trust incentives. Now, with a 4 Kw system, over the course of a year, we sell back more electricity to the power company than we use. The utility intertie is effortless, there is no maintenence, and there are lots of roofs with good sun exposure in Portland. We can do this, Oregon is a great place for solar, the technology is here and the subsidies are in place.
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thank you thank you thank you
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We need to change the paradigm of how we think about where and at what cost we currently meet our electrical demands in our nation.
When analyzing any form of production we must consider a cradle to grave approach to understand the "real costs' associated with that particular method of production. Every form has it's inherit plus' and minus'.i.e. pollution (CO2), diminishng resources (coal/ oil), maintenance costs, environmental mitigation(Salmon), realiability (lack of sun, wind, water) at a particular time of the day, initial investment costs to build, lifespan of the power plant, costs to decomission etc...
Achieving cost parady must be realized by including all these factors and considering the region the particular power method is going to be deployed. It is a balance of all of the most appopriate technologies using a cradle grave approach.
Solar has it's benefits here in the NW as it does in Germany and the Netherlands. Both share approx. the same peak sun of production of 3.9 hours a day annually. This doesn't sound like alot, but when utilized correctly it will very likely meet about 10% of our regions electrical demand if allowed to to be integrated into the utility grid over the coming years.
Solar technology being carbon free in production and virtually maintenance free over the life of the system of twenty five years, it's cost per watt produced are less than traditional methods of production when the costs of operations and decomissioning are included.
As for incentives, tax breaks and the costs associated to produce a given technology, giving a flat $150 million tax break to Exxon, or housing atomic waste from nuclear electrical production at taxpayer expense is also a method of subsidy that is currently not being included in the equation.
A big difference is that the traditional producers never stop taking the subsidy where the renewable producers only require the incentive initially. And these incentives in time will not be required as the economy of scale takes over and real cost parady is realized.
To conclude, it will take a plan that includes a little of everything that works and eliminating and scaling back those that don't. Holding in reserve those forms of power production that insure realibilty and are diminishing will allow us to transission and meet out future energy grid demands
Robin Rabiroff
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To answer your questions quikly,
Justification of investment depends on the site location, type of renewable equipment and size.
Most often low income folks are not land owners required to meet the qulifications for installation programs.
I feel a hybrid system with small wind part as being the most cost effective system, depending on location.
Long term funding should be from utility/customer sources.
Yes ,but renewable installations are a long term pay back commitment and NOT a money maker but a Green thing.
Unfortunatly our Govenor thinks from the wrong end and has no clue on what is best for businesses or the public. He only thinks what is best for himself and the unions that are the only benifactors.
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Jay
I agree with access to low income families (to whom saving 15% of their monthy electric bill is one more box of mac and cheese to feed their kids. We need to collectly work at addressing this access issue. A discussion on this and related topics is being started on Linked In in the Alliance for Reason and Knowlege group.
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It's true. The payback for residential solar energy is not very attractive. The best ROI will be on the "un-sexy" things like sealing leaks, insulating, and shutting off lights. Just like more lives will be saved with simple boring things like wearing your seat belt rather than some exotic program. So, it today's financial bottom line is the goal, solar will not be the biggest bar on your Pareto chart.
Solar is an important strategic investment. Thank goodness for incentives and "early adopters" so that we can grease the skids and develop the systems and expertise for solar. We, as a society, need to have these systems in place before the "big-time" energy crisis hits. The long term investment will pay orr when we are no longer held hostage by energy sources that hurt our environment and political safety.
The knee-jerk reaction is that solar energy in Oregon would be a big joke. However, PV panels are actually very efficient in our cooler temperatures and gather energy at wavelengths that include more than just the visible spectrum.
We are fortuate that our state has the foresight to get out in front with incentives to bridge the gap to justify the investment.
Eventually, volume will drive solar costs down and energy costs will continue to go up. When the sweet spot comes, Oregon will be ready to lead and provide for the demand.
Kate Thornton, EIT/GC
Owner- Kaizen Home Improvement
www.kaizenhome.com
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With generous support from SolarWorld, PGE, the Bonneville Environmental Foundation and the Energy Trust of Oregon, the German American School of Portland received a brand new 7.8 kW solar panel array this school year. One third of the panels have been installed to function as awnings over some windows and are visible from the school’s playground. The school also received an interactive, touch screen kiosk that provides real-time data on energy production and various types of renewable energy resources. Every morning, the teachers, parents and children at the German American School check in at the kiosk to see how much energy we saved and produced. This information is also available at www.gspdx.com as part of the Solar 4R Schools project.
While the total energy bill of this large building is only minimally reduced by this 7.8 kW system, we have chosen to very publicly support solar energy for the future. For our children, solar energy is simply a fact of life and something everyone should do. They see it working on the playground, learn to cook with solar ovens in the classroom and it has become a normal part of their daily routine. By the time they are ready to assume leadership roles, I am hopeful that production costs will have dropped and that more renewable resources are used to alleviate the unbearably heavy burden that fossil fuels currently put upon our world.
Blake Peters, German American School of Portland
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Schools are struggling to invest in solar. Because they (along with nonprofits, municipalities, tribes, and governmental buildings) don't have any tax liability, they cannot use tax credits. Thus, schools have had to go through many hoops, requiring legal, accounting and other third parties to figure out how to get them installed. Rieke School spent months doing that. The negotiations are not transparent.
How much are the third parties profiting--and eroding our general fund???
Solar World's support for the German American school is a public relations coup because the school is in Washington County and is German-centric. But Solar World would never be able to donate panels for all schools.
A feed-in tariff can accommodate schools, paying the schools for the energy over a 15 to 20 year period, during which the schools pay off the system with low interest bond money.
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I work for a Vancouver, Washington company, Simple Solar Solutions, and we deal with mostly solar hot water. In the Pacific Northwest, solar hot water is five times more efficient than photovoltaic and costs about a third of the price for the same output.
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Solar systems are an investment that creates an immediate payback in increased home value and down the road in reduced energy costs. When remodeling a kitchn, nobody asks for a payback, because there is none in monetary form, it is considered an investment or done because we enjoy an updated kitchen.
The other point is that we have not calculated the true cost of other energy sources. How many billions have we spend for salmon recovery because of the presence of hydroelectric dams. We don't pay for that directly via our utility bill. We do not put a cost on environmental degradation, air, water, and soil pollution as a result of energy production from oil, coal, gas, or nuclear. However there are huge costs that often come years or decades later in the form of a superfund site cleanup for example. If we included these costs into the energy generation, solar would look really good all of a sudden. We as a society need to make choice - do we want to continue our polluting ways or do we want to put more money into research of more efficient renewable energy. In my opinion, there is only one answer.
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AMEN!!
The externalization of costs is the "way to do business". This fundemental flaw was exploited during the period after the second world war when consumption was promoted as the highest purpose of life and tat the core of the American dream.
One of the transistional tools we need to teach is the basics of ecological economics http://www.ecoeco.org/, as the means of calculating things like cradle to grave costs in terms and accountant can understand.
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Key impediments to implementation of solar energy on commercial structures: financing.
Tax credits and rebates are great, but the upfront problem is how to finance the installation, or putting it differently, how does one raise the cash to pay the vendors up front to do the installation? Tax credits, even those transferable, don't give rise to cash until the end of the project, and even then, don't do so unless a buyer is found. Traditional financing isn't really available, as how does one collateralize a loan for a solar power installation? It isn't practical to think in terms of removing the installation, and a lender providing such financing usually won't be able to get a security interest in the building, or if able to do so, it will usually be junior to the existing financing in place for the purchase of the building, which usually isn't acceptable. Figure out how to enable commercial property owners to finance solar power installations, and provide satisfactory collateral to the lenders, and there will be more installations. Perhaps establishing a credit enhancement program with loans financing solar installations backed by the guaranty of the State of Oregon?
David Ambrose
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The answer you seek can be found with Umpqua Banks Green Street Loan program. http://www.greenstreetloan.com/. they specialize in providing the upfront money needed to make conservation and invest in wind and solar energy. Contact Carol Gaouette |Vice President | Business Relationship Manager | 201 B Avenue Suite 100 | Lake Oswego, OR 97034 | 503-422-8490 for more information.
You can also get a Energy Improvement Mortgage for both residential and commerical improvements which can be very helpful. http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=bldrs_lenders_raters.energy_efficient_mortgage
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Portland has a new site to look at http://oregon.cleanenergymap.com/ to realize your PV and solar thermal potential just by putting in your address... -Steph Stoppenhagen
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How long does a solar photovoltaic array last? Will they continue providing the same amount of electricity over 20 or 30 years? What are the costs of maintenance (I know that the cells need to have dust and whatnot cleaned off periodically)?
Aside from cost, I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to be generating your own energy -- especially solar water heaters.
I would also expect that landlords could offer solar electric systems in their rental houses as an additional benefit for renters.
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My husband & I are working on a whole house live in remodel. Before we got started we evaluated our heating. We live in a 1942 cape cod that was using oil heat. We desperately tried to get a geo thermal heat pump but it's not viable on a small lot in the city. We opted for solar panels and have zero regrets. Unfortunately more people are not willing to make the investment. Such technologies don't get cheaper or better if you don't invest.
Since February we have not used a water heater. The panel is heating our domestic hot water as well as heating our home. We estimated that this system will pay itself off in the next 6-8 years with the tax credits and the savings we see every month.
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Generally, we speculate that the payback period is 10-12 years. That's before you factor in tax rebates. Its a little different here in Washington. We get the federal credit of $2,000, then $1,000 back if you have an electric water heaater from Clark County PUD.
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@justinerickson
We have a spreadsheet we built for the calculations. We only have 6 months of data right now but it still looks very promising. We have quite a few more credits that add to a greater amount than the credits you get.
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Great! Maybe I should move there. Seriously, anything helps. I'm glad it's doing such a great job and that its a sound investment.
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Trust me, we did so much research and planning. This isn't even the solution we wanted. It's a long story as to to why, but this is still proving to be a good investment for us. The plan is to add to it when we replace the current roof with a standing seam metal roof.
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Have you looked into solar assist radient floor? You know you can combine your hot water and space heating needs. There are some factors like where your at in your remodel but its got to be cheaper than geothermal wells or ground loop systems. Just a thought
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Why does everyone always talk about Photovoltaic system and not Solar Hot Water? Everyone in the PNW knows that Solar Hot Water is much more efficient and cheaper than Photovoltaics.
I think that all the big businesses are into photovoltaics and there for pushing it, because it lends itself to economies of scale. These big business can then make a lot of money making a lot of the PV panels using machines and not people. Solar Hot Water is a small business man's business. Each install is different and unique. This is just the opposite of economies of scale. Per kilowatt of power produced, Solar Hot Water will employ a lot more people than PV will.
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I here you
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A lot of these comments and questions have been about the high upfront cost of solar, even after federal and state incentives. Yet a number of states are pioneering new public financing models that allow municipal governments to finance solar and energy efficiency projects on private property. But unlike a conventional loan a homeowner might get from the bank, these loans are attached to the property tax or the utility bill. No credit checks. Very small upfront costs for the homeowner. And the value of the projects stay with the property even if you sell it.
California was one of the first states to do this. Colorado, New Mexico and Virginia followed. In Oregon, HB 2181 (http://www.leg.state.or.us/09reg/measpdf/hb2100.dir/hb2181.a.pdf) enables communities throughout the state to set up these types of programs.
At the end of the day, it makes no sense to install solar without first addressing the energy performance of the building. So any programs that help homeowners take action for both energy efficiency and solar projects at the same time -- and that simplify the process and reduce the out-of-pocket costs -- seem to hold the most promise for addressing our enormous energy challenges.
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I hope my comment follows your thinking. Clark County PUD offers a 5.25% 5-year interest loan (if you have an electric water heater) to put in a solar hot water system.
I think a utilities co. offering this type of help (along with the $1,000 credit they give) is a great start. But I am biased, as I work for Simple Solar Solutions.
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I understand your reasoning, however, you have to think about your end game plan. I think why it makes so much sense to invest in solar PV and hot water is because they are much better education tools than conservation will ever be. The more panels people see the more people will buy. And I can garuntee you ANYONE who own solar has gone back through their homes and businesses to make those conservation efforts which improve the value of the solar
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Who is this bozo??
300 Bar gas storage?? Give me a break, that is not technically feasible for residential applications
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I am an advocate for Environment Oregon, a statewide organization with more than 30,000 members statewide.
A caller just stated her support for HB 3039 and the solar feed-in tarrif. Environment Oregon supports the solar feed-in tarrif, which was in the Governor's original bill, HB 2121.
HB 3039 also has a second component - a program to encourage large-scale solar. Unfortunately, this provision allows a 2:1 REC (renewable energy credit) for utilities to meet the state's renewable energy portfolio standard (RPS, 25% renewable energy by 2025). Conceptually the 2:1 solar REC cuts the RPS in half.
HB 3039 is on the Senate floor today for a vote. Although the 2:1 REC isn't currently in the bill (as it was withdrawn to get the bill out of the Senate), HB 3039 will go to a conference committee where the 2:1 credits is likely to be added back in.
Allowing cuts to the RPS should be unacceptable to Oregonians. While we should be encouraging Solar, we shouldn't be losing sight of our main goal: reducing global warming pollution.
Brock Howell
Environment Oregon -
On your caller regarding new methods for cost incentives. The state of Washington (just over the river) uses an incentive program. My house has 2 meters, 1 is net metering, the second is all the power comming out of my panels. I get a check every year for the panel power and the net meter handles the rest....
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We have lots of sun in central and eastern Oregon to work with. Wind too, for that matter.
As an aside though, Sunriver used to be called Fog Camp, I believe by the loggers before it was an Army Camp. In winter it is often the most horrible bone chilling cold fog for days on end.
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There is a general public misunderstanding of how the sun actually works. I think both guest have done well to explain the general physics of the sun and I commend Emily and the TOL staff for this fine discussion. However as an astronomy educator for years and especially focusing on observing the sun as a professional amateur astronomer allowing thousands of the public to literally observe the sun through solar research grade telescopes across the nation and overseas while teaching astronomy, I can tell you that in general, most people do not understand that the sun is streaming electromagnetic energy and has been doing this continuously as far as science tells us, for over 5 billion years as have all the stars in the universe. A further misunderstanding is that it actually transmits through the atmosphere on cloudy days. Again, it is constant flowing energy naturally and is responsible for all life on the planet, i.e.; photosynthesis; skin is sunburned on cloudy days [nothing to do with simple light or heat], but the electromagnetic spectrum and the UV part of the electromagnetic spectrum is always there. Even when the earth is turned away at night for 12 hours, there is a partial flow enwraping the planet. A physical fact of the 'solar wind'.
This needs to be stressed more in science education. Although I am not well versed to comment on the political and business aspects of developing solar power as that becomes a political argument too often that I believe always deems the discussion of this as only a political and economic argument, thus deters it further education of the development of solar power as a needed source of clean natural energy. The actual factual physics and science of this should be taught more in schools as there is no denial of its actual existence which is responsible to all of life as we know it.
Mark Seibold, Artist-Astronomy Teacher
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For much of WESTERN Oregon, photovoltaic panels seem like a relatively poor investment. Even in Germany, they probably wouldn't be as prolific without heavy subsidy. Any public dollars should be directed to sources that are most regionally appropriate, with emphasis on efficiency technologies like ground-source heat pumps in areas with limited renewables. What I would like to know, is what's a reliable, unbiased source of comparison? If there isn't one, we need regional scientific assessments of what's most practical, economical, and environmentally benign over the next decade or two.
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If Solar World isn't pursuing large scale solar in Oregon - only rooftop warehouse solar in Southern Oregon, ask them why they'resupporting HB 3039's 2:1 credit for large scale solar.
Brock Howell
Environment Oregon -
Oregon is one of the most Solar-Friendly states, in plain numbers. Because of our lower temperature make PV Panels more productive, we produce much more energy in the winter, even with the clouds and rain we have.
On Tax Incentives:
The Oregon BETC pays for 50% of a solar array over five years.
The Energy Trust pays for 1.50 to 1.75 per watt.
The American Recovery Act has a grant for 30% of the price, minus the energy trust incentive.So, for a Commercial Business to get Solar PV under 30 kilowatts,
If your panels cost $8.30 per watt,
The federal government pays $1.965
The State of Oregon pays $4.15
The Energy Trust pays $1.75,For a total combined incentive of $7.865.
That means the customer pays $0.435 per watt.
That 30 kilowatt system would cost about $13,050, not $249,000.
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I am for solar but I bought some solar yard lights and they were a terrible disapointment, only one out of eight still worked after the first year. I'd bet that many people were soured on solar PV by a similar experience.
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you get what you pay for solar lights for the most part are cheap, and while I agree with your thoughts there are tons of really great solar yard lights but there not cheap. Keep shopping!
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As a follow up, as you're not really addressing financing in this session, I would ask and would appreciate that you set up a future session that deals with the concept of financing renewable energy projects, and have speakers participate who can actually provide specifics on the subject. Thanks.
David Ambrose
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See- the previous post on Umpqua Bank for guest suggestions
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So far solar energy collection is expensive, experimental and the technology is in its infancy. This conversation does not help people who are chonically unemployed, under-employed and poor.
I understand the development of alternative energy will be an evolutionary process, and that solar energy collection will become less expensive and more efficient over time, but in the meantime we should spend much more time promoting conservation of energy and resources. Everybody can participate in conservation.
We need to make sure that our mindset is evolving to conserve resources as we develop alternative energy. I don't want to see the metaphorical equivalent of solar collection "strip malls". Let's create alternative energy with thoughtful and sophisticated sensitivity to nature. Let's think the problem through before we throw things in place that we'll dispose of a few years later.
If an iteration of technology is inefficient and expensive, don't try to deploy it wide scale.
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Many of us are working on the access issue for the the poor. However, if no one pioneered investments in cutting edge technologies despite the payback or ROI we would not have innovation in our country and that is not what this country was founded on.
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Wave energy?
Henh, putting those Rose Festival Princesses to work doing somethig productive after all, by harnessing all of those Parade waves.
<Emily Litella voice>
Never mind.
</Emily Litella voice>
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My name is Doug Morrow and I work for Inland Electric Renewable Energy Team in Hillsboro. I strongly believe in our products (Solar/Wind and Hydro) are the wave of the future. I agree that it is hard to figure return on investment for renewable energy (for residential 7-10 year payback app. and commercial 3-6 year payback app.) but one must look at the total picture and the choices we have in not investing. Our modules come with a 20-25 year warranty, the inverter with 10 year plus factory warranty and sadly the price of energy will only increase with time accelerating the payback. The public that is served by PGE and Pacific Power have great incentives. When one shops for a Photovoltaic system one of the questions you should ask is: "What do you charge per installed watt?" This will help you find a simple answer to find the right solar installer. Thank you.
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I would like to let people know what students are doing to support the switch to solar energy. At Corvallis High School, students have been working for two years already, investigating the process of switching to solar panels and fundraising for this project. We are now finalists in Walmart's national Earth Day Every Day Challenge. If Corvallis High School is selected by popular opinion, we will win $20,000 and finally buy solar panels.
Please watch our video and vote for Corvallis High School at: www.EarthDayEveryDayChallenge.com
Each vote helps us come closer to our dream of being a greener school.
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Way to GO!!! Good Luck you got my vote
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In 1976 a scientist named Barry Commoner ran for President. The sole plank on his platform was Energy. He noted, correctly I believe, that Energy Cost, as a percentage of GDP, would strangle our economy.
He outlined a way that PV cell costs could be contained. He drew the analogy with the microchip industry, whose chips in that era had just had just come down in price significantly. He observed that the NASA had placed orders for vast quatities of these chips, used in computers and other equipment needed to put a man on the moon. The semiconductor industry was forced to expand and automate, bringing the cost of computer chips down radically. He suggested that if all Federal buildings were retrofitted with PV cells, the same economies-of-scale cost reductions would follow. Residential and local Business arrays would become way more affordable. And once paid for, the power from these arrays would be free (not a word that oil and other energy companies like to hear)
He also advoctated Distributed power generation as opposed to Centralized, noting the inherent overhead in large-scale, centrally generated power distribution (not to mention utility companies' profit margins). The more local the generation and distribution, he thought, the cheaper the power for everybody.
The Federal Government should invest in this technology. Every Federal building in America should have rooftop PV arrays. It just makes good sense.
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I like this guy. I would like to see the alternative reality where he won and how life would have evolved in America from that point forward.
throw in schools, libraries, and churches into that mix and you see what i have been working so hard on. Lets' just Do it!!!
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I live in Central OR off the grid. The cost of bringing the grid to my house would cost way more than my photovoltaic system even though I could sell power back to the grid much of the year.
I wanted solar because I think it is a better longterm solution &, I wanted to "walk my talk" within my budgetary limitations.
However, learning how to live w/ solar has had a steep learning curve for me. I had preveiously lived in an urban/grid situation for most of my life & had no technical understanding of residential electricity (volts vs amps vs kwh etc.) or running the necessary back-up generator. Wind is not yet an option in my specific location w/ the current technology in ambient wind collection. Diesel generators that would run on vegetable oil are very costly. Tying the back-up generator into the system so it would kick in automatically is also costly. Many generators in use now use fossil fuels & produce carcinogenic as well as noise pollution.
I would like to see more user-friendly components integrated into the available technologies such that a non-technological person like me can monitor & operate a residential system without having to go back to school. By comparison, I did learn to drive a car without needing to understand the physics of internal combustion as well as learning to use a computer without becoming a geek.
I would love to find out if, in places such as Germany where solar is more widely used, they have developed user-friendly components for the residential user.
Thanks, Maggie
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As many people on this forum have noted, photovoltaic solar power (PV) is principally a device for tax avoidance rather than a truly viable energy solution. Photovoltaic technologies, which have been in development for over 50 years, are mature technologies and will most likely not produce any future undiscovered economic breakthroughs. If fully implemented these PV technologies would only be able to supply a small fraction of our energy consumption demand at a very premium price.
As with most tax avoidance schemes this one seeks to redistribute costs from those with the least wealth to those with more wealth. Rebates and incentives are paid for by those taxpayers who do not benefit from the real estate PV “investment” strategies nor do they enjoy concomitant power rate reductions. To the contrary the current buyback subsidy strategy enables distributed PV system owners to be able to sell power to the grid for $0.12 per kwHr and buy it back for $0.07 per kwHr with the subsidized $0.05 difference being paid through taxes imposed upon those people least able to afford the discretionary “investment” of $10K - $50K for a very modest PV installation. Capital cost subsidies for PV systems are largely directed to installation contractors - no surprise that the construction/installation industry lobbyists are some of the most avid advocates of PV. Many of those outside the industry see PV as a limited energy resource with ineffective capital and resource allocation.
The slightly more efficient concentrated solar power (CSP) energy generation technologies are attractive only under an incomplete cost accounting scenario. The most desirable CSP and PV exploitable public lands (such as the Sonoran and Mojave Deserts) are those which contain some of the greatest biodiversity in the United States and have scarce cooling water.
The full tragedy of this is that the “problem” is political and not technological. There is no energy crisis that cannot be satisfied with other proven sustainable, cost-effective and environmentally benign technologies. The political desire to redistribute wealth upwards is leading us towards barren and destructive national polices as we have already seen in Star Wars, Ethanol, and the much reviled General Mining Act of 1872.
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Ok here are my 2 cents worth.
I believe solar energy can be mainstreamed as an economically viable energy source (and part of the total clean energy mix) if four "simple' things are accomplished
1) End all subsidys for nonrenewable energy sources-period. Sure its going to drive up the cost and make it harder for the poor but it will make any renewable energy source more economically viable
2)Pass an agressive Feed in Terriff
3) In Oregon get Solarword and PV Power to sell their product directly to installers, this will help bring down the price to end users.
4) Push for tougher carbon caps which will drive up the price for Green Tags.
Hope this helps
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I concur that you have accurately framed the discussion as belief vs. facts. The facts that argue for a lack of an unsubsidized economic and environmental viability for PV have deterred the belief that PV is (without subsidies) an investable technology. Therefore we enter the political arena of supplanting investment with subsidies which distribute the income from nonbeneficiaries (largely lower income taxpayers) to the individuals and businesses best positioned to profitably influence public policies and government earmarks. While there may be some ultimate societal, environmental and economic benefits to the population at large when subsidies are directed towards encouraging promising but risky and expensive R&D, propping up a mature industry which shows no promise of emerging as an unsubsidized economic front runner only exacerbates the real problem (energy availability) and redistributes wealth in a meritless manner.
Affordable energy is a vital component of human health and welfare. Increasing energy costs without compensatory environmental and social benefits while placing those increased costs onto those least benefited and least able to pay creates neither a just society nor a sound technological infrastructure. Again, we do not have a crisis rooted in fact but one nourished by mythology.
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I am happy because now people start moving to this technology. golf instructions
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Few people realize just how much money leaves our state to import energy resources.
In 2006 a study conducted by 3E Strategies found that Oregonians spent $10 Billion on energy. Fully 85% of that money left the state. Think of what it would do for our economy to keep a fraction of that $8.5 Billion in state?
Solar and renewable energy allows more of that money to stay local--helping our economy. It supports small business, provides skilled jobs and supports local manufacturing of solar equipment.
Here's an example of an Oregon company that can benefit our economy: http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/06/08/daily25.html?ana=from_rss