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southeasturi's comments:
on Where Bikes and Cars Intersect
I really don't know. It would honestly not occur to me that a simpler machine, with a more visible mechanism, would necessarily be simpler to operate. I may not be typical. To me, it seems more likely, that the difference in attitudes is driven by economic considerations. Your mileage -- obviously -- may vary.
Not to be glib, but does a gas oven seem simpler to you than a microwave oven?
As for why we do not regulate bicycles, I think that is because the population of bicyclists on the road has been small and the costs of imposing regulation would have been seen as prohibitive. Because we have -- in the United States -- been trained think of bicycle commuters as a curiosity and an annoyance.
The mysterious and ill-considered green boxes are a response to a perceived change the interaction between cars and bikes in Portland.
As for the right to ride a bike, I am not so sure. I would tend to agree with you, except that the city is now imposing additional restrictions upon those who have applied for the privilege to operate automobiles and motorcycles, restrictions intended to accommodate bicyclists on streets and bridges. We do not blink at laws which forbid bicycles on the freeway. Bicyclists are not supposed to ride on sidewalks. These restrictions would seem to indicate that -- like driving a car -- the right to use a bicycle is subject to limitations for the safety and convenience of car drivers and pedestrians.
I am not proposing that a permit be required for every use of a bicycle, but I don't know that the right to use a bicycle on city streets ought to be exempt from regulation intended to make the biking population more aware of, and careful about, the dangers of sharing the road with automobiles.
Not to be glib, but does a gas oven seem simpler to you than a microwave oven?
As for why we do not regulate bicycles, I think that is because the population of bicyclists on the road has been small and the costs of imposing regulation would have been seen as prohibitive. Because we have -- in the United States -- been trained think of bicycle commuters as a curiosity and an annoyance.
The mysterious and ill-considered green boxes are a response to a perceived change the interaction between cars and bikes in Portland.
As for the right to ride a bike, I am not so sure. I would tend to agree with you, except that the city is now imposing additional restrictions upon those who have applied for the privilege to operate automobiles and motorcycles, restrictions intended to accommodate bicyclists on streets and bridges. We do not blink at laws which forbid bicycles on the freeway. Bicyclists are not supposed to ride on sidewalks. These restrictions would seem to indicate that -- like driving a car -- the right to use a bicycle is subject to limitations for the safety and convenience of car drivers and pedestrians.
I am not proposing that a permit be required for every use of a bicycle, but I don't know that the right to use a bicycle on city streets ought to be exempt from regulation intended to make the biking population more aware of, and careful about, the dangers of sharing the road with automobiles.
posted 5 years ago
view in context
on Where Bikes and Cars Intersect
I was editing my post while you were replying to -- the admins might want to put a time limit on edits.
The thought I was trying to articulate is this: Our attitudes towards owning and operating cars differ from our attitudes towards owning and operating bicycles because bicycles represent a smaller investment.
The consequences of being a bad driver are potentially much more costly to other people than the are the consequences of being stupid on a bike.
The thought I was trying to articulate is this: Our attitudes towards owning and operating cars differ from our attitudes towards owning and operating bicycles because bicycles represent a smaller investment.
The consequences of being a bad driver are potentially much more costly to other people than the are the consequences of being stupid on a bike.
posted 5 years ago
view in context
on Where Bikes and Cars Intersect
Yes, I understood that we were both replying to the same initial comment. I also understood that you probably had not read my response, which is why I repeated the suggestion that the permits apply only to certain uses.
I suspect that your feeling -- that operating a bicycle is less complicated than operating an automobile would change -- if we took the time to educate bicyclists the way that we educate drivers.
When I say a bike is cheaper, I mean that bikes represent a smaller replacement cost, and have a lower cost of ownership, than automobiles. This is why we give them to children, and is a large part of why bikes are not treated as vehicles in the same way as automobiles.
I present (without autoritative citation) my assertion that, for most folks, learning to drive a car involves operating a machine which represents a subtantial fraction of some other person's net worth. In this context, it is my contention, the owner/instructor has an incentive to instill habitual care and caution in the student.
I further assert that this is not the case for most beginning bicyclists.
Furthermore, an automobile has a much greater potential for causing injury or property damage than a bicycle. For legislators and law enforcement, this makes educating drivers and regulating the activities of automobile operators a higher priority than regulating the activities of bicyclists.
Certainly the individual tasks that are common to riding a bicycle and driving a car will vary in difficulty. However, I still assert that -- taken together -- the tasks involved in operating a bicycle do not require less skill or attention than the tasks involved in operating an automobile.
Think of the skills and knowledge that you must demonstrate to obtain an automobile operator's license. You do not have to understand the theory behind the internal combustion engine. You don't have demonstrate that you can drive a stick-shift. You have to demonstrate that you can see well enough to read road signs and that you know what they mean. You then have to demonstrate sufficient motor coordination to drive a slalom, execute a k-turn, and parallel park. The practical portion of the test is given -- in most cases -- only once during a driver's lifetime.
A bike permit might require no more than a written test on the relevant traffic laws and expected behaviors for bicyclists sharing the road with motor vhehicles.
I ask again, is riding a bike on city streets a right?
Edited for typos and to complete a poorly expressed thought.
I suspect that your feeling -- that operating a bicycle is less complicated than operating an automobile would change -- if we took the time to educate bicyclists the way that we educate drivers.
When I say a bike is cheaper, I mean that bikes represent a smaller replacement cost, and have a lower cost of ownership, than automobiles. This is why we give them to children, and is a large part of why bikes are not treated as vehicles in the same way as automobiles.
I present (without autoritative citation) my assertion that, for most folks, learning to drive a car involves operating a machine which represents a subtantial fraction of some other person's net worth. In this context, it is my contention, the owner/instructor has an incentive to instill habitual care and caution in the student.
I further assert that this is not the case for most beginning bicyclists.
Furthermore, an automobile has a much greater potential for causing injury or property damage than a bicycle. For legislators and law enforcement, this makes educating drivers and regulating the activities of automobile operators a higher priority than regulating the activities of bicyclists.
Certainly the individual tasks that are common to riding a bicycle and driving a car will vary in difficulty. However, I still assert that -- taken together -- the tasks involved in operating a bicycle do not require less skill or attention than the tasks involved in operating an automobile.
Think of the skills and knowledge that you must demonstrate to obtain an automobile operator's license. You do not have to understand the theory behind the internal combustion engine. You don't have demonstrate that you can drive a stick-shift. You have to demonstrate that you can see well enough to read road signs and that you know what they mean. You then have to demonstrate sufficient motor coordination to drive a slalom, execute a k-turn, and parallel park. The practical portion of the test is given -- in most cases -- only once during a driver's lifetime.
A bike permit might require no more than a written test on the relevant traffic laws and expected behaviors for bicyclists sharing the road with motor vhehicles.
I ask again, is riding a bike on city streets a right?
Edited for typos and to complete a poorly expressed thought.
posted 5 years ago
view in context
on Where Bikes and Cars Intersect
I disagree. Bikes are cheaper than cars, but there is nothing about the operation of bicycle that is more intuitive or in -- any meaninful way -- simpler than the operation of a modern automobile.
As for the "freedom of what a bike is" Is riding a bike a right? Or, more on topic, is riding a bike on a city street a right?
As I said, I do not think that it would be practical to license every bicyclist, but I do wonder if it would be possible to issue permits for the bike lanes (on major commuter routes), and to ride a bike over the bridges.
As for the "freedom of what a bike is" Is riding a bike a right? Or, more on topic, is riding a bike on a city street a right?
As I said, I do not think that it would be practical to license every bicyclist, but I do wonder if it would be possible to issue permits for the bike lanes (on major commuter routes), and to ride a bike over the bridges.
posted 5 years ago
view in context
on Where Bikes and Cars Intersect
What is the difference? You have to learn to ride a bike, just as you have to learn to drive an automobile. If you CAN drive a car, then you know HOW to drive a car. You may not do it well, or wisely -- but the same may be said of people who can balance on two wheels.
Bicyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as drivers of cars. More to the point, both bicycles and automobiles are subject to the same laws of physics. The only real difference would seem to be that a collision between a bike and a car is much more likely to be lethal for the the bicyclist than for the driver of the car.
Bicyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as drivers of cars. More to the point, both bicycles and automobiles are subject to the same laws of physics. The only real difference would seem to be that a collision between a bike and a car is much more likely to be lethal for the the bicyclist than for the driver of the car.
posted 5 years ago
view in context
on Where Bikes and Cars Intersect
Yes. While it would seem impractical to license every bike owner, I have often wondered if permits could be required for use of designated bike lanes and (most especially) bridges. This would make education and enforcement easier and create a population of permitted bikers with a stake in keeping the bike routes safe.
posted 5 years ago
view in context
